ECJ bans sex-based discrimination in insurance

In the real world
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

ECJ bans sex-based discrimination in insurance

Post by Captain Seafort »

Beeb
Insurers cannot charge different premiums to men and women because of their gender, the European Court of Justice (ECJ) has ruled.

The decision means that women can no longer be charged lower car insurance premiums than men, and the cost of buying a pensions annuity will change.

The change will come into effect in December 2012, although customers could see premiums alter in the interim.

Representatives of the insurance industry said they were disappointed.

The court was ruling on a challenge by a Belgian consumer group Test-Achats.

It had argued that a current exemption for insurers contradicted the wider European principle of gender equality.

"Taking the gender of the insured individual into account as a risk factor in insurance contracts constitutes discrimination," the ECJ said.

The requirement for unisex insurance premiums and benefits will start on 21 December 2012, giving national governments and the European insurance industry time to adjust.

Different risks

For car insurance, women are generally a lower risk to insure than men but will, in due course, have to pay the same premiums.

The British Insurance Brokers' Association (BIBA) said currently the cost of the average car claim by an 18-year old man was £4,400, while that for an 18-year old woman was £2,700.

"The ruling will have a significant effect on the insurance industry which has used the system of risk based pricing to award discounts to lower risk drivers like young females who are statistically safer drivers," said Graeme Trudgill of BIBA.

"The industry will have to change its model and effectively females will now pay a cross subsidy for males on their insurance premiums."

Simon Douglas of AA Insurance told BBC News that the decision could add about £400 to the annual cost of car insurance for a young woman.
Potential premium changes

* Women aged under 25 could see car insurance costs rise by up to 25%
* Men could see an 8% reduction in annuity rates, but women could see a 6% rise
* The cost of life assurance could increase by 20% for women but fall by 10% for men

Source: Estimates from ABI commissioned research in Autumn 2010
"Particularly for women under 30 where the difference is most extreme, they currently pay about half what a man would pay," he said.

"We could see their prices go up 25-30% and men's premiums could fall by about 10%."

Maggie Craig, acting director general of the Association of British Insurers (ABI), said: "This gender ban is disappointing news for UK consumers and something the UK insurance industry has fought against for the last decade.

"The judgment ignores the fact that taking a person's gender into account, where relevant to the risk, enables men and women alike to get a more accurate price for their insurance."

Pensions

The ECJ decision will also affect the cost of buying an annuity - an annual pension income - as women live for longer than men and so receive a smaller annual pension for the same pot of money.

The insurance industry has warned that the change will lead to men receiving a smaller annuity income than they do now when their benefits are brought into line with those for women.

Tom McPhail, a pension specialist at the investment firm Hargreaves Lansdown, said the ECJ decision was a "seismic event which will fundamentally reshape the retirement landscape".

He predicted that annuity rates would equalise for men and women, at levels higher than female rates but "significantly worse" than current annuity rates for men.

"Rates will be volatile for the next few months as insurers monitor their new business and adjust their pricing in response to experience," Mr McPhail said.

Darren Philp, of the National Association of Pension Funds (NAPF), said he was disappointed with the ECJ decision, which would lead to a worsening of people's pension incomes.

"The data shows that there is a clear difference between them when it comes to longevity," he said.

"It is therefore perfectly reasonable for annuity providers to offer rates on the basis of this difference, as long as it is based on clear evidence."
Fucking idiots. :x
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
Posts: 35635
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:04 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA
Contact:

Re: ECJ bans sex-based discrimination in insurance

Post by Mikey »

This is absolutely ridiculous. It doesn't get any fairer than basing insurance premiums directly and solely on the covered risk, and actuarial data explicitly shows that that's exactly how it was. By giving one gender or another a "break" in having premiums not based solely on the risk of the insured, this ruling in fact lays down the foundation of incorporating bias, not eliminating it. Once again, a lobby shows that it's goal is merely to scream the loudest, and has nothing at all to do with that lobby's publicly-stated intention. :roll:

Your title is misleading, BTW. Charging different rates based on different risks isn't discrimination, it's the exact opposite.
I can't stand nothing dull
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
Tyyr
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
Posts: 10654
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:49 pm
Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh

Re: ECJ bans sex-based discrimination in insurance

Post by Tyyr »

Political correctness run amok.
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: ECJ bans sex-based discrimination in insurance

Post by Captain Seafort »

Mikey wrote:This is absolutely ridiculous.
Welcome to the weird world of the European Union. :roll:
Your title is misleading, BTW. Charging different rates based on different risks isn't discrimination, it's the exact opposite.
On the contrary, the current system does indeed discriminate, in that it treats various groups differently. This is a good thing.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
User avatar
Reliant121
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
Posts: 12263
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:00 pm

Re: ECJ bans sex-based discrimination in insurance

Post by Reliant121 »

Depends on the point of view you're looking from. I know how to drive (obviously can't legally, only on private land) and I know very well that I'm controlled and calm. However, I have to pay insane premiums (IE, I actually can't afford it whatsoever. end of story. And I'm affluent compared to most) because the majority of young males are complete dicks behind the wheel.

However, I think the method is ridiculous. I think there should be a cap on premiums for male and women. Whether they discriminate against genders or not, doesn't matter. However, if they capped it at say...£2000 i'd be happy.
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: ECJ bans sex-based discrimination in insurance

Post by Captain Seafort »

Reliant121 wrote:However, I think the method is ridiculous. I think there should be a cap on premiums for male and women. Whether they discriminate against genders or not, doesn't matter. However, if they capped it at say...£2000 i'd be happy.
Whereupon the insurance companies either go out of business or refuse to insure under-25s, because they can't afford to insure the aforementioned idiot boy racers.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
User avatar
Reliant121
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
Posts: 12263
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:00 pm

Re: ECJ bans sex-based discrimination in insurance

Post by Reliant121 »

Well, that's fine. When they go out of business since my generation simply never learn to drive because rail or bus happens to be cheaper (As painful as it is to say), we're back to the same problem.

All I'm saying is that, under either system, virtually no under 21 male can drive, unless their parents pay it for them. Mine could afford it but choose not to unless they drive it as well. Most parents couldn't. It doesn't take into account that not every under-21 year old is a raving insane lunatic and so the whole is penalized.
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
Posts: 35635
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:04 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA
Contact:

Re: ECJ bans sex-based discrimination in insurance

Post by Mikey »

Discrimination in the textbook sense, but the word generally carries a connotation of unfair differences.

Anyway, another thought comes to mind. I'm not really familiar with how most insurance operates in Europe. Are your insurers generally mutual insurers, as they are over here? If not, then this is just a maddening display of - as Tyyr said - political correctness practiced without intelligence. If so, this is extraordinarily dangerous to the insurance business. In fact, it's awfully close to a practice known over here as "twisting" which, if practiced by individual insurance producers, is usually grounds for the revocation of a producer's license.

In a mutual insurer, the funds to cover claims are made liquid by the premiums. If those premiums aren't directly correlated to the risk of the insured, that balance sheet will be awry. Obviously the ECJ (ECI, perhaps? ;) ) didn't make any provision for insurers to not be made to cover valid claims once this ruling throws that liquidity into pandemonium, so what then? This is little different in effect from when Prudential, Met, and a number of other insurers over here had their asses handed to them in court for failing to have bonded liquidity to cover P&C re-insurance (which is handled in a different manner but has the same effect.)
Reliant121 wrote:Depends on the point of view you're looking from. I know how to drive (obviously can't legally, only on private land) and I know very well that I'm controlled and calm. However, I have to pay insane premiums (IE, I actually can't afford it whatsoever. end of story. And I'm affluent compared to most) because the majority of young males are complete dicks behind the wheel.

However, I think the method is ridiculous. I think there should be a cap on premiums for male and women. Whether they discriminate against genders or not, doesn't matter. However, if they capped it at say...£2000 i'd be happy.
Unfortunately, Reliant, insurers simply can't make that determination based on a private interview with the prospective insured and a determination that "he seems like a nice young man." The only thing to go by is actuarial data - and that states that a 17-year-old driver is a greater P&C risk than a 40-year-old one. Look at life insurance: given equal health reports, a man should be charged more than a woman because statistically the chances are that he will die earlier than she will - tough break, but the point is that the man will statistically pay less in premiums before the time comes to pay a claim than the woman. Now, the insurance company has to pay the face value of the policy upon the holder assuming room temperature, no matter the holder's gender; that being the case, having to pay it without having collected the same funds with which to cover that claim is fiscally unfeasible in the long term.

The reason you're seeing it the way you do is simple: you correlate your ability with what you perceive as a fair premium. That would be nice, but insurance necessarily can't work that way. It's a pool; the premiums you pay today generally won't be used to pay your claim tomorrow, unless you intend to make a habit of hitting something as soon as you get your license. Today's premiums are required to fund the claims made on 5, 10, and 20 year-old policies. An insurance company can't tell an insured, "Sorry - we can't pay your claim, because we charged Kierann (and his generation) less because he seemed nice."
I can't stand nothing dull
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
User avatar
kostmayer
Captain
Captain
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:08 am

Re: ECJ bans sex-based discrimination in insurance

Post by kostmayer »

One thing I'd bet money on is that the Insurance Companies raise fees for young Female drivers a lot more then then they drop them for young Male drivers. Insurance rates on the whole are becoming a joke, drivers in all demographics are seeing premiums rise despite not having any claims. If the EJC wants to step in about something then they should do something about that. Insurance is a legal requirement, there should be some regulation.

I don't think its paticularly fair that I pay higher Insurance premiums due to other newly insured male drivers, paticularly as I'm a careful (and I hope) good driver, but short of charging everybody the same regardless of age, gender and lifestyle, I don't see any alternative.

In anycase, people need to move around. Bus services are being cut, trains are overcrowded and expensive, and insurance and petrol costs are pushing people out of their cars. How are they expecting people to get to work?

One fact I did hear on the radio on the way home, which I have yet to check up on, is that young Male drivers pass their test quicker then any other demographic, and also have the highest accident rate. Surely more stringent driving tests are needed? Mandatory motorway lessons, and perhaps a longer test.

Another option would be restricting drivers to lower powered vehicles for the first few years, as is done with Motorcycles.

As for Pensions, I've also read that the majority of annuitys are bought by males, and so most women affected by this will be the wives of annuity owners, and will be worse off on the whole anyways. Allowing logevity to be taken into account, provided it is backed up by solid statistical evidence as it apparently is, seems a sensible solution.
"You ain't gonna get off down the trail a mile or two, and go missing your wife or something, like our last cook done, are you?"
"My wife is in hell, where I sent her. She could make good biscuits, but her behavior was terrible."
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
Posts: 35635
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:04 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA
Contact:

Re: ECJ bans sex-based discrimination in insurance

Post by Mikey »

#1 - see above for why the fact that you are careful can't be a consideration, at least not until you have significant driving history with one company.

#2 - Pensions =/= annuities, though annuities may be held in pensions. Further, this area is probably the least affected by the court's decisions, as actuarial tables for life insurance have extended to age 105 for at least 10 years, and may be extended even further than that now. It's been a while since I held a producer's license.
I can't stand nothing dull
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
User avatar
Reliant121
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
Posts: 12263
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:00 pm

Re: ECJ bans sex-based discrimination in insurance

Post by Reliant121 »

Perhaps, during the test, the level of you're ability is graded to provide different "levels" of insurance. These grades last about 5 years or so until you hit a single rate for each age group?
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: ECJ bans sex-based discrimination in insurance

Post by Captain Seafort »

Reliant121 wrote:Well, that's fine. When they go out of business since my generation simply never learn to drive because rail or bus happens to be cheaper (As painful as it is to say), we're back to the same problem.
No, they'll simply adjust their business model to cater to older drivers almost exclusively. Your generation may end up with fewer drivers as a result of your logic, which may result in the insurance companies either shrinking or diversifying, but that won't bankrupt the companies in the way a price cap would.
It doesn't take into account that not every under-21 year old is a raving insane lunatic and so the whole is penalized.
Yes it does. The demographic group "male under 25" is the one that costs insurance companies the most money, therefore they pay most. If every male under 21 was a raving lunatic the insurance companies would simply refuse point-blank to insure them.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
User avatar
Reliant121
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
Posts: 12263
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:00 pm

Re: ECJ bans sex-based discrimination in insurance

Post by Reliant121 »

Which, they wouldn't be able to do, because that would be even more discriminatory than charging more for a given group.

I don't know. It must depend entirely how much the insurance companies need, I'm fairly sure American insurance companies don't charge anywhere NEAR as much as we do (although I imagine the legal bullsh*t that costs the money probably isn't anywhere near as stringent). I've found a way round the insurance prices but thats only going to work for a few.
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: ECJ bans sex-based discrimination in insurance

Post by Captain Seafort »

Reliant121 wrote:Perhaps, during the test, the level of you're ability is graded to provide different "levels" of insurance.
It isn't a matter of ability, it's the simple fact that a teenager is likely to drive differently when there's a middle-aged driving instructor sitting next to him than when there are half a dozen of his mates crammed into the back seat egging him on to see how far round the endstop he can wrap the dial on the speedo.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
User avatar
Teaos
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15380
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:00 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: Behind you!

Re: ECJ bans sex-based discrimination in insurance

Post by Teaos »

I bet the suit heads writting the law expected the premiums of all the groups to drop is men pay what women used to.

But I bet my left nut that women just end up paying more. The only people who will benifit from this law is insurance companies.
What does defeat mean to you?

Nothing it will never come. Death before defeat. I don’t bend or break. I end, if I meet a foe capable of it. Victory is in forcing the opponent to back down. I do not. There is no defeat.
Post Reply