SUV's and Trucks Bought with Cash for Clunkers

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SUV's and Trucks Bought with Cash for Clunkers

Post by Tyyr »

By BRETT J. BLACKLEDGE, Associated Press Writer Brett J. Blackledge, Associated Press Writer - 1 hr 28 mins ago

WASHINGTON - Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, the nation's top car salesman in recent weeks, has cited the Obama administration's best-seller list of mostly smaller, fuel-saving cars like the Ford Focus to describe the success of the Cash for Clunkers rebate program.

But what LaHood and other administration officials usually don't mention is that some trucks and sport-utility vehicles that get less than 20 miles per gallon, like the Ford F-150 truck and one version of the Cadillac SRX Crossover, also are being purchased with the new government subsidies. Both are bulky vehicles weighing more than 6,000 pounds when loaded that boast at least 248 horsepower.

Just how many consumers used the federal rebates to buy these larger, not-so-green vehicles is unclear. The Obama administration has declined so far to release detailed records of purchases under the program being compiled by the Transportation Department, listing every clunker deal requesting rebates. The Associated Press requested the data July 31.

The Transportation Department distributes regular summaries of sales from the clunkers program and has used the electronic sales information from dealers to bolster arguments that Americans are dumping gas guzzlers for gas savers. But its failure to release detailed records means the public can't verify those claims.

"Today almost 200,000 new fuel-efficient automobiles averaging 25 miles per gallon are on the road instead of gas-guzzling trucks and SUVs," LaHood wrote on his official blog just before Congress voted to spend $2 billion more for the government rebates last week.

Even the Top 10 list of mostly smaller, fuel-efficient cars that LaHood has cited as evidence of the program's success is being questioned. A different Top 10 sales list produced by Edmunds.com, an auto consumer Web site, from dealer sales data shows fewer small cars and more large vehicles like trucks and utility vehicles make up the best sellers.

Both lists of top sellers include, for example, the fuel-saving Toyota Corolla, and the clunkers program by its definition is encouraging consumers to dump older, less fuel-efficient cars for new, more efficient models.

But the program, now expanded to $3 billion and offering rebates of up to $4,500, isn't limited to the best gas savers on the market. And that's good news to Beny Ledesma, general sales manager at Williamson Cadillac-Hummer in Miami.

The dealership has sold three 2009 Cadillac SRXs - the six-cylinder engine model - through the clunkers program, he said, and is finishing paperwork on two more. Ledesma hopes to sell the other 14 at the dealership, along with some of the Hummer H3Ts on the lot that are eligible for clunker rebates.

Both vehicles get about 18 mpg, considerably less than the 25.3 mpg average that LaHood has attributed to new cars purchased under the clunker program.

"The Cash for Clunkers is definitely generating traffic for Cadillac and Hummer," Ledesma said.

It's not just Honda Civics and Toyota Priuses, two cars that get as much as 29 mpg and 50 mpg respectively, that people can buy with the $3 billion in government rebates. They can also buy versions of the 2009 Lexus RX 350 or 2009 Lincoln MKX, both pricey five-passenger utility vehicles that get about 19 mpg and are capable of towing a small boat.

Buyers must have trade-ins that qualify for such deals - comparable vehicle types with at least 2 mpg less in fuel efficiency than the new purchase. And the new vehicle can't cost more than $45,000.

Even a high-end 2009 BMW X3 crossover utility vehicle, priced at just under $40,000, counts as a gas saver eligible under the government program, with 19 mpg.

White House spokeswoman Jen Psaki said the administration is reviewing the AP's request for the clunkers transaction data that would show all cars purchased and traded under the program, and their fuel efficiency ratings. She said new vehicles purchased are raising the average fuel economy of cars and trucks on the nation's highways and "getting the dirtiest and most polluting vehicles off the road."

Dealers have submitted requests for rebates on 292,447 vehicles sold, at a cost of about $1.2 billion to the government, according to sales data summarized by Transportation Department officials.

It shouldn't come as a surprise that less fuel-efficient vehicles are being purchased with clunker rebates, said Lena Pons of the watchdog group Public Citizen. Congress agreed to loosen fuel efficiency requirements under the program when it passed the initial legislation earlier this year.

Pons said Public Citizen also is seeking sales data from the program to determine whether it has led to drivers replacing larger trucks with smaller cars, or whether vehicles purchased under the program are only marginally better in fuel efficiency.
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Another fine example of the efficiency and quality of government run programs. Large trucks, SUVs, and luxury cars with sub 20mpg ratings qualifying for the program and getting government funds because they eek out just 2mpg better than the models traded in.
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Re: SUV's and Trucks Bought with Cash for Clunkers

Post by Aaron »

Well I can see trucks qualifying, just because of farmers and contractors but SUV's? Hell I have a small one (CRV) and there really only good for hauling things to the dump and moving around the kids/dog...so yeah.
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Re: SUV's and Trucks Bought with Cash for Clunkers

Post by Tyyr »

Well I can see trucks qualifying, just because of farmers and contractors but SUV's? Hell I have a small one (CRV) and there really only good for hauling things to the dump and moving around the kids/dog...so yeah.
If they were getting a highly fuel efficient vehicle or the one they were replacing got REALLY bad mileage. However this whole thing was sold as a way to get old and highly inefficient vehicles off the road and replace them with more up to date fuel efficient vehicles. A 2mpg improvement isn't worth nearly five grand of tax payer money. If I'd written the bill I'd have a minimum improvement of 5mpg and possibly a minimum fuel economy of the new car be 25mpg or better. I would have made exceptions for actual work vehicles like farm trucks or working trucks but your average Joe off the street couldn't buy a hummer with the money.
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Re: SUV's and Trucks Bought with Cash for Clunkers

Post by Reliant121 »

Tyyr wrote: If I'd written the bill I'd have a minimum improvement of 5mpg and possibly a minimum fuel economy of the new car be 25mpg or better.
Easy. Use a big engine diesel. Most get over 40mpg, and are cleaner than petrol.
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Re: SUV's and Trucks Bought with Cash for Clunkers

Post by Tyyr »

Wrong country Reliant.
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Re: SUV's and Trucks Bought with Cash for Clunkers

Post by Reliant121 »

I am probably gonna get a little out of line somewhere along here, but America is gonna have to start trusting things that don't use petrol. Everywhere else does, and diesel is now advanced enough that it often performs better than a petrol. And lasts longer.
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Re: SUV's and Trucks Bought with Cash for Clunkers

Post by Tyyr »

And that's got zero to do with this. We're talking about a program for car purchases now, not in a year or two when and if diesels ever make it big here. I have no issues with diesels and most people don't, but you can't find them. The only non-truck diesel that I'm aware of are VW's.
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Re: SUV's and Trucks Bought with Cash for Clunkers

Post by Reliant121 »

Fair enough I guess, I just disagree with 25mpg being anywhere near a marker as "efficient".
If you do, your plan works.
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Re: SUV's and Trucks Bought with Cash for Clunkers

Post by Tyyr »

Reliant121 wrote:Fair enough I guess, I just disagree with 25mpg being anywhere near a marker as "efficient".
If you do, your plan works.
The plan that exists now doesn't even have an efficiency goal aside from 2 mpg better than what you're driving now, which is how 19 mpg trucks and SUVs are getting bought with the money. Also I have to say it again, efficient by the standards of what you can buy today. You might be able to do better than 25mpg but you start to severely limit choices as to which cars you can buy and most of them aren't "US" cars that that point. Good luck selling that bill if the only cars you can buy with it are Hondas.
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Re: SUV's and Trucks Bought with Cash for Clunkers

Post by Reliant121 »

Tyyr wrote:
Reliant121 wrote:Fair enough I guess, I just disagree with 25mpg being anywhere near a marker as "efficient".
If you do, your plan works.
The plan that exists now doesn't even have an efficiency goal aside from 2 mpg better than what you're driving now, which is how 19 mpg trucks and SUVs are getting bought with the money. Also I have to say it again, efficient by the standards of what you can buy today. You might be able to do better than 25mpg but you start to severely limit choices as to which cars you can buy and most of them aren't "US" cars that that point. Good luck selling that bill if the only cars you can buy with it are Hondas.
Fair point. I have a somewhat negative view of the American auto industry because it just doesn't make any sense. Big cars, with pointlessly big engines that I dont see the need for. However, to improve things I would do two things. Do a scrappage system like we do. Old, dirty and inefficient cars older than 10 years old allow you to get a considerable discount to replace it for a new car. Then, the cash incentive should be, as you said, for cars above a certain threshold.
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Re: SUV's and Trucks Bought with Cash for Clunkers

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Start marketing the larger MPG diesel engines as being cheaper to run. Which they probably are. If you have to fill a car up every 20 miles as opposed to every 40 miles, your losing more money.
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Re: SUV's and Trucks Bought with Cash for Clunkers

Post by Reliant121 »

It depends on your definition of large. A 2.2 litre diesel engine (massive for us) is small to them. But it'll quite easily get about 43mpg out of it. Diesel engines often pull stronger than petrols anyway, even if their overall speed is lower, so with the large majority of sedans would make do with a 1.9 diesel engine.
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Re: SUV's and Trucks Bought with Cash for Clunkers

Post by Mikey »

Sorry to jump in late, but... BULLSHIT.

Unless we're talking about commercial vehicles over 8500 lbs. GVWR - which is a tiny little minority of vehicles purchased - the government credit DOES NOT APPLY toward any new vehicle that gets less than a 23-mpg EPA combined estimate. Period. End of story. Dealerships may sell those cars under the program, but they will NOT get their reimbursement from the government. Part of the reporting/request for reimbursement process includes sending a printout from www.cars.gov, which explicitly states which vehicles qualify, and for what amount.

Talking about what dealerships may have sold under the program is NOT the same as talking about what government funds were expended. If the replacement vehicle doesn't get 23 combined, the selling dealer will not be getting paid the Cash for Clunkers credit. Ever.
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Re: SUV's and Trucks Bought with Cash for Clunkers

Post by Tyyr »

A 2.2 liter isn't all that small. Its not a monster of an engine but most compact cars have engines in the high 1.0s to low 2.0s. Some of your lower end mid size cars also have engines that sized. I think we've also beaten things to death with US vs. European cars. Suffice it to say that you might consider a 2.2 liter engine to be ridiculously huge but we have ten states bigger than your entire country and half of our states are larger than England. The realities of driving in the US are significantly different than those in Europe.
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Re: SUV's and Trucks Bought with Cash for Clunkers

Post by Tyyr »

Mikey wrote:Sorry to jump in late, but... BULLSHIT.

Unless we're talking about commercial vehicles over 8500 lbs. GVWR - which is a tiny little minority of vehicles purchased - the government credit DOES NOT APPLY toward any new vehicle that gets less than a 23-mpg EPA combined estimate. Period. End of story. Dealerships may sell those cars under the program, but they will NOT get their reimbursement from the government. Part of the reporting/request for reimbursement process includes sending a printout from http://www.cars.gov, which explicitly states which vehicles qualify, and for what amount.

Talking about what dealerships may have sold under the program is NOT the same as talking about what government funds were expended. If the replacement vehicle doesn't get 23 combined, the selling dealer will not be getting paid the Cash for Clunkers credit. Ever.
Hate to burst your bubble Mikey but:
What is the value of the credit for the purchase or lease of a new van, pickup truck or SUV?

The value of the credit given for the purchase or lease of a category 1 or 2 truck also generally depends on the difference between the combined fuel economy of the vehicle that is traded in and that of the new vehicle that is purchased or leased. If the new vehicle is a category 1 truck that has a combined fuel economy value that is at least 2, but less than 5, miles per gallon higher than the traded-in vehicle, the credit is $3,500. If the new category 1 truck has a combined fuel economy value that is at least 5 miles per gallon higher than the traded-in vehicle, the credit is $4,500.

If both the new vehicle and the traded-in vehicle are category 2 trucks and the combined fuel economy value of the new vehicle is at least 1, but less than 2, miles per gallon higher than the combined fuel economy value of the traded in vehicle, the credit is $3,500. If both the new vehicle and the traded-in vehicle are category 2 trucks and the combined fuel economy of the new vehicle is at least 2 miles per gallon higher than that of the traded-in vehicle, the credit is $4,500. A $3,500 credit applies to the purchase or lease of a category 2 truck if the trade-in vehicle is a category 3 (work) truck that was manufactured not later than model year 2001, but not earlier than 25 years before the date of the trade in.
and
What new vehicles may be acquired under the CARS program?

The CARS Act applies to new vehicles. Thus, used vehicles do not qualify under the program.

The new vehicle must have a manufacturer's suggested retail price of not more than $45,000. That price appears on the window sticker on new vehicles. The new vehicle must also achieve minimum combined fuel economy levels. For passenger automobiles, the new vehicle must have a combined fuel economy value of at least 22 miles per gallon. For category 1 trucks, the new vehicle must have a combined fuel economy value of at least 18 miles per gallon. For category 2 trucks, the new vehicle must have a combined fuel economy value of at least 15 miles per gallon
and the definition of a category 1 truck:
Class 1

The Class 1 truck GVWR ranges from 0-6000 lbs. Examples of trucks in this class include the Toyota Tacoma and GMC Sonoma.
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