Mexican Drug Wars Now A US Problem

[Aaron]

What is the middle ground there, exactly?

I can think of a way to resolve at least part of the problem, and it involves the word "legalize".

Safe injection sites come to mind as does legalization of the softer drugs. Heroin isn't a very pleasant drug but it's already available legally, it's called morphine. At the very least a legalised dose would be clean and work towards minimising an OD.

What would be really great is if we improved conditions for people here, maybe help out some of the millions of homeless and impoverished people here before we start throwing money at other countries.

Why can't you do both? The US already throws billions of aid at Africa for essentially no gain.

Well, everyone loves the guy who's handing out free money, right? Maybe the rest of the world will like us again if we just send them checks.

The idea is to do it under supervision.

A shame that all that cleverness, fearlessness and determination can't be applied to, I don't know, fixing their own country? I guess they forgot how they became an independent country in the first place.

Yeah because the average dirt poor Mexican has so much oppurtunity to better the country while he's starving and under constant threat by drug running assholes while having zero social security. How much could you have done to fix the US while you were tenting it on the beach?

CPH and Kendall - If we can find a way to control how any money is spent (not using it so the governor of Sonora can buy a new mansion, for example), then I'd support an aid package.

I suggested an option above actually.

[Tsukiyumi]

What is the middle ground there, exactly?

I can think of a way to resolve at least part of the problem, and it involves the word "legalize".

Safe injection sites come to mind as does legalization of the softer drugs. Heroin isn't a very pleasant drug but it's already available legally, it's called morphine. At the very least a legalised dose would be clean and work towards minimising an OD.

Not a bad idea, but I'm more of a supporter of free treatment. Heroin is just no good for anyone.

What would be really great is if we improved conditions for people here, maybe help out some of the millions of homeless and impoverished people here before we start throwing money at other countries.

Why can't you do both? The US already throws billions of aid at Africa for essentially no gain.

Well, we're having some slight difficulties with our economy right now, but once that's straightened out, I don't see why we couldn't.

Well, everyone loves the guy who's handing out free money, right? Maybe the rest of the world will like us again if we just send them checks.

The idea is to do it under supervision.

That's the only way to go, IMO.

A shame that all that cleverness, fearlessness and determination can't be applied to, I don't know, fixing their own country? I guess they forgot how they became an independent country in the first place.

Yeah because the average dirt poor Mexican has so much oppurtunity to better the country while he's starving and under constant threat by drug running assholes while having zero social security. How much could you have done to fix the US while you were tenting it on the beach?

I couldn't have done much by myself, that's for sure. I just see these millions of hardworking, determined people finding clever ways to sneak up here, and think "they'd make a pretty decent army." I guess they just don't have the courage for it.

CPH and Kendall - If we can find a way to control how any money is spent (not using it so the governor of Sonora can buy a new mansion, for example), then I'd support an aid package.

I suggested an option above actually.

A pretty decent one, at that.

[Aaron]

Not a bad idea, but I'm more of a supporter of free treatment. Heroin is just no good for anyone.

So am I actually.

Well, we're having some slight difficulties with our economy right now, but once that's straightened out, I don't see why we couldn't.

I bet if we cared to check that the current administration is still shoveling out aid, it does sweet fuck all but it looks good.

I couldn't have done much by myself, that's for sure. I just see these millions of hardworking, determined people finding clever ways to sneak up here, and think "they'd make a pretty decent army." I guess they just don't have the courage for it.

Generally its easier to escape then to fight. These people have families and children that they send money back to, they probably consider that to be more important then replacing a corrupt government with (most likely) an even more corrupt government. That's if they can spare the time from survival.

I know when I'm really hungry my thougts revolve around obtaining food, rather than killing the obstruction to food.

A pretty decent one, at that.

Thanks.

[Tsukiyumi]

Not a bad idea, but I'm more of a supporter of free treatment. Heroin is just no good for anyone.

So am I actually.

A certain friend of mine had a problem with it; if I needed any more reason to hate the shit, that did it.

Certain drugs, though, I fail to see a problem with. Alcohol is legal, after all.

Well, we're having some slight difficulties with our economy right now, but once that's straightened out, I don't see why we couldn't.

I bet if we cared to check that the current administration is still shoveling out aid, it does sweet f**k all but it looks good.

It'd be really great if we could give out money that actually makes a difference. What we do now seems about as useful as dumping it down the toilet.

I couldn't have done much by myself, that's for sure. I just see these millions of hardworking, determined people finding clever ways to sneak up here, and think "they'd make a pretty decent army." I guess they just don't have the courage for it.

Generally its easier to escape then to fight. These people have families and children that they send money back to, they probably consider that to be more important then replacing a corrupt government with (most likely) an even more corrupt government. That's if they can spare the time from survival.

I know when I'm really hungry my thougts revolve around obtaining food, rather than killing the obstruction to food.

Maybe we could help them step up army recruitment and training; two birds with one stone. The people get employment, and the military is better equipped to handle the cartels.

[Aaron]

A certain friend of mine had a problem with it; if I needed any more reason to hate the s**t, that did it.

I'm a former morphine addict, don't much care for it either.

Certain drugs, though, I fail to see a problem with. Alcohol is legal, after all.

Yup, I am quite puzzleed at the attitude towards things like pot. Though sometimes I like to laugh at the stoners, they might just be the biggest obstacle towards legalisation.

It'd be really great if we could give out money that actually makes a difference. What we do now seems about as useful as dumping it down the toilet.

Considering that UNICEF and various UN agencies just leave their aid to rot in warehouses and sprung shelters in Afghanistan, I'm inclined to agree.

Maybe we could help them step up army recruitment and training; two birds with one stone. The people get employment, and the military is better equipped to handle the cartels.

Adama has a great quote about this in Water, something about when the military become the police than criminals tend to become enemies of the state.

[Tsukiyumi]

A certain friend of mine had a problem with it; if I needed any more reason to hate the s**t, that did it.

I'm a former morphine addict, don't much care for it either.

Sorry to hear it, though it's certainly understandable in your case. You didn't just wake up one day and say, " I sorta feel like injecting a potentially lethal chemical into my arm today. It might be fun!"

Certain drugs, though, I fail to see a problem with. Alcohol is legal, after all.

Yup, I am quite puzzleed at the attitude towards things like pot. Though sometimes I like to laugh at the stoners, they might just be the biggest obstacle towards legalisation.

You have a point there.

It'd be really great if we could give out money that actually makes a difference. What we do now seems about as useful as dumping it down the toilet.

Considering that UNICEF and various UN agencies just leave their aid to rot in warehouses and sprung shelters in Afghanistan, I'm inclined to agree.

Sometimes it seems like we just don't get much right, as a species.

Maybe we could help them step up army recruitment and training; two birds with one stone. The people get employment, and the military is better equipped to handle the cartels.

Adama has a great quote about this in Water, something about when the military become the police than criminals tend to become enemies of the state.

Considering the firepower the cartels wield, any police sent to deal with them would have to be military in all but name anyways. Military training, hardware, etc.

[Aaron]

Sorry to hear it, though it's certainly understandable in your case. You didn't just wake up one day and say, " I sorta feel like injecting a potentially lethal chemical into my arm today. It might be fun!"

True enough.

Sometimes it seems like we just don't get much right, as a species.

Yeah well, when you let the aid be administered and delivered by either locals or people from the AU, you can't expect much.

Considering the firepower the cartels wield, any police sent to deal with them would have to be military in all but name anyways. Military training, hardware, etc.

Various European counries maintain paramilitary police without crossing the line.

[Monroe]

My problem is their ability to move north at all. A fuckton of land mines might dissuade them.

No, it won't. They'll just round up a tonne of poor folks and march them through the field, Soviet Penal Legion style or herd a bunch of cows through.

But the booms and perhaps wireless confirmation of detonations will help the law enforcement on our side get to those spots.

[Tsukiyumi]

Yeah well, when you let the aid be administered and delivered by either locals or people from the AU, you can't expect much.

We certainly need a new system for that.

Considering the firepower the cartels wield, any police sent to deal with them would have to be military in all but name anyways. Military training, hardware, etc.

Various European counries maintain paramilitary police without crossing the line.

I'm watching 60 Minutes right now about this, and these people are packing serious firepower. Unless paramilitary police forces regularly use tanks and attack helicopters, a military operation would be necessary. These aren't regular petty criminals.

[Aaron]

But the booms and perhaps wireless confirmation of detonations will help the law enforcement on our side get to those spots.

And do what, pick up body parts? Honestly I doubt the Border Patrol has enough men to make any of this feasible.

I'm watching 60 Minutes right now about this, and these people are packing serious firepower. Unless paramilitary police forces regularly use tanks and attack helicopters, a military operation would be necessary. These aren't regular petty criminals.

They can, the issue is with the leadership of the force. A paramilitary police force is civilian in nature, allowing the military to conduct these operations is simply asking for trouble. The militaries job is to fight the enemies of your country, unless your willing to declare martial law. People get really funny when it's a soldier on the corner rather than a cop.

[Tsukiyumi]

But the booms and perhaps wireless confirmation of detonations will help the law enforcement on our side get to those spots.

And do what, pick up body parts? Honestly I doubt the Border Patrol has enough men to make any of this feasible.

I was referring to a more or less automated, low-manpower sort of arrangement with my landmine/machine gun emplacement idea.

I'm watching 60 Minutes right now about this, and these people are packing serious firepower. Unless paramilitary police forces regularly use tanks and attack helicopters, a military operation would be necessary. These aren't regular petty criminals.

They can, the issue is with the leadership of the force. A paramilitary police force is civilian in nature, allowing the military to conduct these operations is simply asking for trouble. The militaries job is to fight the enemies of your country, unless your willing to declare martial law. People get really funny when it's a soldier on the corner rather than a cop.

Okay, now I get the distinction. As long as they have body armor, heavy weaponry, tanks, AFVs, attack helicopters, and the ability to call in artillery and airstrikes, a civilian force should be able to handle this threat.

[Aaron]

I was referring to a more or less automated, low-manpower sort of arrangement with my landmine/machine gun emplacement idea.

Landmines aren't as realiable as most people think they are and will need either a self-destruct, command detonation or regular replacement to do this job effectively. Sure the US Army could use it's massive stockpile of artillery scatterable mines for this but see my first sentence.

Okay, now I get the distinction. As long as they have body armor, heavy weaponry, tanks, AFVs, attack helicopters, and the ability to call in artillery and airstrikes, a civilian force should be able to handle this threat.

You really only need the first two and APC's for this. These guys aren't a professional military force, any decent Gendarme should run rings around them. The problem is that the government, police and military in Mexico are on the take (5$ a day, who knew!). And your not going to stop that by killing drug runners, as long as there is money to be made this will keep happening. Using force is both an admission that you can't control your own nation but that your policy is a failure. We're not accomplishing anything with this except killing people and you can't do that fast enough to put a dent in the problem.

[Tsukiyumi]

...We're not accomplishing anything with this except killing people and you can't do that fast enough to put a dent in the problem.

That sounds like a challenge.

Seriously though, they could potentially solve this without say, a few Stryker brigades and air support, but they'd suffer heavy casualties. One house they raided successfully had over 2,000 hand grenades, M2 machine guns, Barrett sniper rifles, RPGs and rocket launchers. They may not be a professional military, but they have more firepower than some.

On the subject of killing people fast enough, most of these useless air-wasting piles are the sort that like to brag, flash their cash, and talk a lot. Find the people in charge, assassinate them, work your way down through the ranks, lather, rinse, repeat. Sure, there will be more to take their place, but the new people won't have any of the experience, connections, or resources. Hobbling the cartels would be acceptable, if they can't be destroyed.

[Aaron]

That sounds like a challenge.

Seriously though, they could potentially solve this without say, a few Stryker brigades and air support, but they'd suffer heavy casualties. One house they raided successfully had over 2,000 hand grenades, M2 machine guns, Barrett sniper rifles, RPGs and rocket launchers. They may not be a professional military, but they have more firepower than some.

On the subject of killing people fast enough, most of these useless air-wasting piles are the sort that like to brag, flash their cash, and talk a lot. Find the people in charge, assassinate them, work your way down through the ranks, lather, rinse, repeat. Sure, there will be more to take their place, but the new people won't have any of the experience, connections, or resources. Hobbling the cartels would be acceptable, if they can't be destroyed.

There's just this pesky thing...the Bill of Rights, maybe?

Wait, wasn't this a Tom Clancy novel?

[Tsukiyumi]

There's just this pesky thing...the Bill of Rights, maybe?

Wait, wasn't this a Tom Clancy novel?

I'm not sure what legislation we enacted banning assassination, but it should go in the rubbish bin, at least so far as dictators and drug cartels go.

And, I got partway through Rainbow Six before I decided it was derivative capitalist propaganda crap, and put it down. If I'm ripping off Clancy, it certainly isn't intentional.