Iran cracks down on Baha'i

[stitch626]

Yeah. Look at WMD's and Iraq.

[Teaos]

With out religion most people fighting under its name would be fighting anyway. But some wouldnt. Does that justify the destruction of religion?

[Mikey]

Of course not. Does the existence of the Nazi party justify obliterating any concept of national pride?


These concepts - national pride, religion, etc. - are implements, amoral in themselves, used to wither good or bad ends by people... people who would have found other justifications or means in their absence.

[Tsukiyumi]

I'm fighting in the name of Crystal Pepsi, personally. I liked it, and think that the doctrine of fully transparent carbonated fructose beverages should be spread around the world, by force if necessary.









...See? It's easy.

[Duskofdead]

Of course not. Does the existence of the Nazi party justify obliterating any concept of national pride?

I don't really believe in national pride, at least in the way that I think most Americans would define it. I'm not out on a crusade to destroy it per se, but I think being proud "just b'cause" is really stupid. And going to kill people because your nation is better "just b'cause" is even more stupid. National pride is treated far too much like laurels to sit back and wallow in self-righteousness about for no particular reason, rather than a sense of civic duty like "I am proud of being American, and that means I'm going to make sure America is a nation to be proud of at all times."

In fact, I don't know ANYONE who views it that way. Most people view it as slapping a flag sticker on their car and getting into argumetns with people about how countries they've never been to aren't as good as the U.S.

[Tsukiyumi]

...getting into argumetns with people about how countries they've never been to aren't as good as the U.S.

I usually argue that I'd rather live in The Netherlands, personally. My own island nation would be nice, but that would take a very large amount of fantastic luck...

[Duskofdead]

...getting into argumetns with people about how countries they've never been to aren't as good as the U.S.

I usually argue that I'd rather live in The Netherlands, personally. My own island nation would be nice, but that would take a very large amount of fantastic luck...

Neat. Of course, most people would take my remark as an anti-America thing. When it's not meant as one at all. I just think if you're going to be proud of something, or lay claim to pride over something, then get off your butt and do something to make it worthy of pride. Don't just lay back, shovel pork rinds and talk about how you're better cause you happened to accidentally be conceived here by chance. (Not you personally Tsuki, haha.)

[Teaos]

Be proud of something you've done not what someone else has.

[Tsukiyumi]

Be proud of something you've done not what someone else has.

It's too bad pride in personal accomplishments and the concepts of honor, decency and generosity have apparently been lost to individual isolationism, consumerism, and the general acceptance of deceit and selfishness.

[sunnyside]

most people would take my remark as an anti-America thing. When it's not meant as one at all.

Not even a little bit? You seem to roundabout imply that the US goes out killing people "because we're better".

But mostly your statement, possibly not intentially, carries much of the tone of a lot of people who are, well, sort of are anti-American.

Often when people say they want American to be a nation to be proud of at all times it doesn't mean they're working to actually make it better. Rather they're just their to waggle their finger at the US whenever anybody in it does something they don't like, and blame it for anything bad anyone ever does to it. Terrorist flew into some buildings, clearly Americas fault, Americans should be ashamed of themselves for bringing this upon themselves with their <fill>.

I'm not saying you're that way. I'm just saying your statement parrallels the sort of rhetoric those sorts of people open with, and so many people will jump to the conclusion thats the sort of person you are.

[Duskofdead]

Not even a little bit? You seem to roundabout imply that the US goes out killing people "because we're better".

I would flat out say that for a lot of undereducated people, someone with an American flag flying overhead pointing at someone with another flag flying overhead is sufficient reason to kill, or justify killing. And that most of those people think they're doing it out of "love of their country" when most times they're just being used for some other agenda they are clueless about.

But mostly your statement, possibly not intentially, carries much of the tone of a lot of people who are, well, sort of are anti-American.

The reason I don't really feel a need to defend myself against this type of characterization is because I have been around enough conservatives to know that generally, any mental willingness or capability of criticizing what America does as a nation is construed as being anti-American.

Often when people say they want American to be a nation to be proud of at all times it doesn't mean they're working to actually make it better. Rather they're just their to waggle their finger at the US whenever anybody in it does something they don't like, and blame it for anything bad anyone ever does to it. Terrorist flew into some buildings, clearly Americas fault, Americans should be ashamed of themselves for bringing this upon themselves with their <fill>.

Another conservative trademark, bringing in 9/11 instantly into any discussion of America and its behavior. At any rate, I believe in be the change you'd like to see in the world. Not make the world be the change you want to see, which seems to drive U.S. foreign policy and the "conditions" upon which many conservatives in the U.S. would "agree" to coexist or negotiate with other nations.

I'm not saying you're that way. I'm just saying your statement parrallels the sort of rhetoric those sorts of people open with, and so many people will jump to the conclusion thats the sort of person you are.

Well your problem is assuming that anyone who would be highly critical of America or its foreign policy is mutually exclusive with someone who both is American and is loyal to his country. The difference is-- your line of thinking implies loyalty to country, blind loyalty, regardless of how your country behaves. There are many people who are native born, loyal Americans who retain some skepticism and a "watchdog mentality" about their country/government becuase they or their families have been on the opposite end of the "whatever America does is right" policies. Be it removal to concentration camps, removal to reservations, segregation, institutionalized discrimination, etc. Questioning and vocally opposing these things doesn't "hurt" America, it makes it stronger and better.

What amazes me about American conservatives and how they think today is--- if these people had been around in the Colonies, would you have been arguing that all these disloyal whiners should stop complaining about the King? The contradiction that gets me about today's conservatives is they seem to take some sort of national pride in America's screw the bad status quo myth about its own creation, and then promptly go out and defend the status quo-- no matter what that status quo happens to be. Inequality, unjust wars, violations to the Constitution, etc.

[Mikey]

Well, unfortunately the same things can be said either way - I happen to one of those who believes that being able to speak out agaisnt things that happen in America is a function of the most basic values of America; however, sitting here talking about how the conservatives are wrong to say what they say is, in a backhand way, also the thing which you decry. You can't only have that ideal of America for one side of the aisle.

However, that's not what I meant - the "national pride" I referred to meant cultural nation, not political.for Tsukiyumi, for example, that would mean one of the NANs (Cherokee, IIRC.) For me, it would be Eastern European Jewry. When Hitler used it to justify and to popularize his actions, it was Scandinavian/Teutonic/Gothic roots.

[Duskofdead]

Well, unfortunately the same things can be said either way - I happen to one of those who believes that being able to speak out agaisnt things that happen in America is a function of the most basic values of America; however, sitting here talking about how the conservatives are wrong to say what they say is, in a backhand way, also the thing which you decry. You can't only have that ideal of America for one side of the aisle.

They can believe whatever they want. But the operating definition of patriotism used politically by the right is based upon the false premise that America is just any old nation and you should be loyal and support whatever it does, just because it's your nation doing it. Skepticism about what your government does is not just patriotic in America's case, it's written right into the Constitution.

And sorry Mikey but "national" pride very much implied political. I understand what you mean now but I guess you meant something closer to pride in one's heritage than pride in one's nation.

[Teaos]

See thats what I find odd Mikey.

What percentage are you Jewish?

You must have other stuff mixed in there. The reason I bring this up is because I know so many people who are as little as 1/64th something and they trump it up like it is their defining characteristic.

I guess its also a reflection of me because I dont consider my self to be anything but a New Zelander. Sure about 6 generations ago my family was from western europe and I can trace it back to 950AD but I find the idea of ansectorial pride very odd.

[Mikey]

I agree - that's what my last post said. However, the obverse of that is the fact that for good or ill we have to let other people speak as well.