Shogun 2: Total War - New Video - Battle Report

[Tyyr]

A japanese tank, maybe.

ORLY?

[SolkaTruesilver]

I meant WW2 japanese tank

(but I was joking. I have no idea about the quality of the Japanese tank during WW2. I was poking fun at the concept that Katana are that sharp, which is ludicrous)

[Tyyr]

Japanese steel is actually rather shitty quality.

That said Japan is just cooler than China to most people, so they make games about it.

[SolkaTruesilver]

AFAIK (and it's merely amateurish interest), what made the Katana so "awesome" is the very high quality technique and crasftmanship used to transform absolutely shitty steel into acceptable weapon, which is an achievement in itself.

Maybe Japan is "cooler", but that's because media prefer to depict Japan, (because Japan is "cooler", because media prefer to depict Japan,)^30

edit: adding math formula to simplify post

[Tyyr]

You're correct, all the work they put into the folding of blades was an attempt to mitigate the inherent deficiencies in their base metal. Katana vs. Medieval sword the material quality is about on par.

I don't think it's the media so much as fan boys who learned about folded steel, samuaris and other things and went with. The media responded to what people liked.

[SolkaTruesilver]

But the fanboys have to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is the unrealisticly cool depiction of Japan and Japanese weapons/warfare/culture in the media, no?

Chicken and the Egg, mesay.

[Tyyr]

I don't think so. Plenty of history books out that you can read about Japan. The media doesn't just start making something cool. They're like the Borg, they rarely come up with something new, much less a nebulous trend like "Japan is cool." You've got fanboys reading about Japan, getting excited, talking about how cool it is then some media exec picks up on it and rolls with it.

[SolkaTruesilver]

All right. But it still snowballs eventually, as other fans joins because of the media's work.

Shogun probably was the thing that helped popularise the whole Japan mythos in western media. Samurai, Shogun, Katanas, Ninja (NINJAS!!!!), etc.. Maybe there was previous works that treated of "Mythical Japan", but Shogun is probably the one that had the most impact.

Again, if you have better knowledge of the field, I am more than welcomed to be corrected

[Tyyr]

Except that in 2000 the media wasn't really that into video games. The popularity that video games have been seeing in terms of mainstream media has only really cropped up in the last few years. Prior to that it was just to domain of a few geeks and fratboys. Things like ninjas, samurai, katanas, and sushi were all well entrenched in American pop culture prior to 2000 and looking back things like kids TV and movies were already pouncing on anything Japanese prior to Shogun.

It's not a strike against the game but it's more of a symptom of the "Japan is awesome" line in pop culture than a cause.

[Tsukiyumi]

I think he's referring to the novel Shogun. I know my mom raved about it for years when I was a kid, but I never got around to reading it.

[Sionnach Glic]

I wonder why everybody is always in awe about Japan and it's military history. What about China's thousands-year struggles?

Three Kindgom : Total War. For nice measure, add a few neighbouring kingdoms like Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Manchu. Add random barbarian invasions.

Make the Great Wall strategically significant.

That'd be a neat game... I mean, Japan is nice. But China just has so much more material to work with.

A Three Kingdoms game would be great. Loads of scope for it, lots of variation.

Personally I'm not that thrilled with the idea of a new Shogun game. Let's face it - it'll consist of about a dozen completely identical factions going to war with each other on a geographic scale that's tiny compared to what we've seen in the Europe-based games. While it looks nice and I get what they're trying to do, I just don't think it'll feel suitably "epic" like the games have since Rome.

You're correct, all the work they put into the folding of blades was an attempt to mitigate the inherent deficiencies in their base metal. Katana vs. Medieval sword the material quality is about on par.

Were they really on par? Aren't there cases of katanas snapping in combat?

Regarding the fascination with Japan that certain groups have, I've always assumed it was down to Japan being "exotic". From the perspective of Europeans and those nations descended from European colonies, even modern day Japan is pretty different than what we're used to. Go back further to when Japan had no contact with Europe and it gets even more exotic.

Following the Second World War, the US found themselves more or less in control of Japan, and thus its history and culture become more and more well known to the western world as it became more relevant. While places like China and India also have cultures that are highly different from that of the European nations and their decendents, they were never the subject of cultural fascination like Japan was. I believe this to be simply down to their cultures being less well known than that of Japan. Ask some random guy about ancient Japan and he'll probably be able to mention Samurai and "honour" and sushi etc. Ask the same guy about China or India and you'll probably just get a blank look. Japan is "exotic", but at the same time known of, if only in a very basic sense.

[Reliant121]

I'd disagree to India, as when the Empire controlled India, the number of Indian dishes and such like that found their way into England was HUGE. A large proportion of middle to upper class victorian England was fascinated with India.

Of course, it was never as grand as the modern fascination with Japan. But thats purely because media today is an order of magnitude easier to distribute AND obtain.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I'd disagree to India, as when the Empire controlled India, the number of Indian dishes and such like that found their way into England was HUGE. A large proportion of middle to upper class victorian England was fascinated with India.

Of course, it was never as grand as the modern fascination with Japan. But thats purely because media today is an order of magnitude easier to distribute AND obtain.

I think he reduced the "Western World" to "The US and it's media". It's a common mistake. The U.S. never really had much interest in India, as their sphere of influence never went deep there, as opposed to the U.K.

Also, India is a multitude of cultures. It's a HUGE melting pot of dozens and dozens of different nations and cultures, where Japan is very monolithic by comparison. Hell, Japan is very monolithic even compared to China!

(And yes, I was talking about Shogun the Novel, written in 1975 and adapted in a TV Serie, movie, musical)

edit: wait. They really made a musical out of Shogun. I'll be damned. anyway, the book is a goddamned good read. I heartily recommend it!

[Reliant121]

To be fair, its unsurprising that its a common error. The US is probably the predomenant country in the world, both politically and culturally(or lack thereof ). I was merely proving a point.

[Tyyr]

If you're talking the Novel then yeah. Given the nature of the thread though the game seemed like the more likely Shogun to be speaking of.

Were they really on par? Aren't there cases of katanas snapping in combat?

Yeah, but so did European swords from time to time.