OMGz Prez is gonna Brainwash our Kidz!!!!

[sunnyside]

Though all the hubub seems to achieve something. For example this time around there were origionally "suggested activities" where kids would have written about how to help the president with what he spoke about. Which, in addition to just telling kids to study, included a couple off the cuff comments about "protecting the environment" and "making our nation more fair", but after the press they dropped some or all of the suggested activities.

A bit trifling (ok more than a bit), but that's how the game is played. The investigations earlier may have kept Bush from having his "weekly address to the kids" or somesuch.

On the EU. Is there any reason they don't just kick Ireland out? They just don't want to go without the whisky? If anything you'd think they'd avoid the headache of having to address or be obliged to do something about the bombings, and you'd think Britain would want Ireland more on their own.

[Sionnach Glic]

I liked the idea of the EEC. Europe is so interconnected that smoothing out the economic side of things just made good sense. I agree that going to a fully political body was just a bad idea.

That's my view on it too. Joining the EEC did wonders for Ireland, taking it from what was basicaly a third world country to a wealthy and prosperous nation, and it helped get Europe running smoothly again after WW2.

Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't the EU in one form or another, such as the constitution, been struck down by the populace every time its put to a public vote?

Yep. That's why this time around with the Lisbon Treaty, they've rigged it so that the people don't get a vote. The governments of the countries make the decision, and it's in their best interests to agree to it.

Ireland is, to my knowledge, the only country in the entirety of the EU whose population gets a vote on whether or not to agree with it. That's why we've been causing so much trouble for the EU. We're litteraly the only thing stopping them from just rail-roading whatever they want through without the public's say on this. That's why the Germans said we should be kicked out of the EU last year when we voted no on it the second time - because we're spoiling their game.

The anti-Treaty campaign is already in full swing over here. There are various posters and signs up all over the place urging people not to vote, with just the occasional one in favour of the treaty. I'm hoping that the public's current hatred of the government will swing the undecided over to vote no, as Fianna Faíl -the party that's been running the country into the ground for the past few years- is the pro-Treaty campaigns strongest supporters.

[Sionnach Glic]

On the EU. Is there any reason they don't just kick Ireland out? They just don't want to go without the whisky?

They're still trying to pretend they're a democratic society. Kicking us out would make it slightly more obvious that they really couldn't give a shit about the will of the people.

If anything you'd think they'd avoid the headache of having to address or be obliged to do something about the bombings, and you'd think Britain would want Ireland more on their own.

Britain and Ireland aren't really on poor terms any more. And I don't think the EU ever lifted a finger to do anything about the Troubles.

[Tyyr]

Yep. That's why this time around with the Lisbon Treaty, they've rigged it so that the people don't get a vote. The governments of the countries make the decision, and it's in their best interests to agree to it.

Ya know, someone should be raising hell about that. Especially since the stated aim of the Treaty is to:

"to complete the process started by the Treaty of Amsterdam [1997] and by the Treaty of Nice with a view to enhancing the efficiency and democratic legitimacy of the Union and to improving the coherence of its action."

How can you have democratic legitimacy if you don't let the people vote on something. It's not a democracy if no one has a say in the process.

Ireland is, to my knowledge, the only country in the entirety of the EU whose population gets a vote on whether or not to agree with it. That's why we've been causing so much trouble for the EU. We're litteraly the only thing stopping them from just rail-roading whatever they want through without the public's say on this. That's why the Germans said we should be kicked out of the EU last year when we voted no on it the second time - because we're spoiling their game.

Well it says something deeply troubling about the EU when they throw a hissy fit because the population of country exercises their right to vote and chooses to disagree with them.

The anti-Treaty campaign is already in full swing over here. There are various posters and signs up all over the place urging people not to vote, with just the occasional one in favour of the treaty. I'm hoping that the public's current hatred of the government will swing the undecided over to vote no, as Fianna Faíl -the party that's been running the country into the ground for the past few years- is the pro-Treaty campaigns strongest supporters.

I wish the anti-Treaty group the best. I hope they remain a pain in the EU's ass for a long time to come.

[Sionnach Glic]

Ya know, someone should be raising hell about that. Especially since the stated aim of the Treaty is to:

"to complete the process started by the Treaty of Amsterdam [1997] and by the Treaty of Nice with a view to enhancing the efficiency and democratic legitimacy of the Union and to improving the coherence of its action."

How can you have democratic legitimacy if you don't let the people vote on something. It's not a democracy if no one has a say in the process.

They're only democratic when it suits them to be. When they don't get their own way, they seem to decide to just try and push it through regardless. The Lisbon treaty is a perfect example of this. It was shot down in its original incarnation, then changed so the public didn't get a vote (with the exception of Ireland), then it was shot down again, and now they're forcing us to take another refferendum on it.

Well it says something deeply troubling about the EU when they throw a hissy fit because the population of country exercises their right to vote and chooses to disagree with them.

Indeed it does.

I wish the anti-Treaty group the best. I hope they remain a pain in the EU's ass for a long time to come.

As do I, though I'm somewhat worried about our chances. Newspapers polls put the figures at 40% in favour, 30% opposed and 30% undecided. It could really go any way, and the vote is just next month.

[Tyyr]

If I were in charge I'd be playing up the angle that the EU doesn't want to let them vote on major issues like this and is trying to overturn what you've already decided by forcing a second referendum.

[Sionnach Glic]

That pretty much is the angle that the anti-Treaty campaign is going for. Along with generic "they're trying to take our freedom!" slogans.
The thing is, campaigns in Europe are a lot less.....loud than American ones. Over here it's primarily just a bunch of posters plastered everywhere.

[Sionnach Glic]

As do I, though I'm somewhat worried about our chances. Newspapers polls put the figures at 40% in favour, 30% opposed and 30% undecided. It could really go any way, and the vote is just next month.

Actualy, it may not be as bad as I was worrying about. Prior to the 2008 refferendum on the Treaty, the newspaper polls had the yes vote even further ahead than is being reported now. So hopefully those voting yes are just louder, while fewer in number.

[sunnyside]

I'm still on the fence as far as what I think of the EU. Especially from a "what's good for America" perspective. Sometimes it'd be good to have another western superpower out there. The lack of one puts America into the "world police" role, which requires more from us and only encourages the US to abuse it's power (which, all things said an done, it doesn't do much of compared to historical nations finding themselves with such an imbalence of strength).

On the other hand I suppose sometimes being the superpower is a good thing. And having the dollar as the world currency is a very good thing. Lower rates, and, if things ever really do go bad for the US, we can use inflation to effectively obliterate the national debt, either in one fell swoop of hyperinflation/money printing or sneaky sustained double digit inflation. Though if that option and the ability to print money wasn't always there it's possible politicians would have more fiscal responsability, but I doubt it.

[Sionnach Glic]

I'm still on the fence as far as what I think of the EU. Especially from a "what's good for America" perspective. Sometimes it'd be good to have another western superpower out there. The lack of one puts America into the "world police" role, which requires more from us and only encourages the US to abuse it's power (which, all things said an done, it doesn't do much of compared to historical nations finding themselves with such an imbalence of strength).

Meh. The US would still be stuck in that role. As long as you Yanks are happy enough to be the Defenders of all that is Good and Free in the world, Europe has no pressing need to actualy do any real work itself, as they can always count on America to deal with any real threat to them.
So until the US falls from its current position as top dog, a united Europe would still be of little use. Then there's the fact that it'd be eternaly bogged down in red tape.

[Tyyr]

Meh. The US would still be stuck in that role. As long as you Yanks are happy enough to be the Defenders of all that is Good and Free in the world, Europe has no pressing need to actualy do any real work itself, as they can always count on America to deal with any real threat to them.
So until the US falls from its current position as top dog, a united Europe would still be of little use. Then there's the fact that it'd be eternaly bogged down in red tape.

You have no idea how appealing the idea of letting ya'll twist in the wind next time is right now.

[Sionnach Glic]

Ah, but then we just side with the Russians, and get them to protect us instead.

[Tyyr]

So we pay a bit more for BMW's and Swedish models. Enjoy having Vlad in charge.

[Sionnach Glic]

Ah, but when we get sick of Russia we just prod the Germans into invading yet again. Problem solved.

[sunnyside]

I can see it now, the Irish missile crisis.

Seriously though, it would really be in their best interests to punt Ireland out.

As I understand it the game Ireland played with the rest of the EU/EEC was to jump in on all the fair and open market stuff...and than slashed their corporate tax rate.

Economically speaking, that's the equivalent of making an agreement with your neighbors to remove all your city walls and make a big wall around everybody so you can get along better...and than raiding your neighbor.

So long as they let Ireland go along for the economic ride all the other nations are a little worse off and Ireland is better off. If they punted you out than you could keep your corp tax low, but all the other nations would get back all their options to turn the screws on Irish based buisnesses trying to use that lower tax rate to out compete local businesses.


Oh wait, is somehow being able to mess with your corp tax rates or something like that part of the new EU deal and that's why it's so opposed in Ireland?