"Canadian" vs "Quebecois"

[SolkaTruesilver]

please adress me as Quebecois

I meant no offense, I didn't realize that French-Canadian was a derogatory term.

It was, some time ago. For people in Quebec, still somewhat is, for French-speaking outside Quebec, it's not. It's... a very complicated issue. "French-Canadian" is a term that was commonly used before the Quiet Revolution, when we were still living the language-based discrimination in our own land by the english Elite. The Quiet Revolution gave us a sense of nationalism, which actually allowed us changing and retaking control of our own economy (which it somewhat succeeded, with a few flaws, obviously).

So for people like my father, "French-Canadian" is a term that makes him remember the time he was told to "Speak White" while working.

If you want to adress me in term of my cultural identity, then I am Quebecois. French-Canadians (outside Quebec) have their own culture and behavior which is different. Calling me a "French-Canadian" is like calling a Scot a British. It's not wrong, but it's definetly not precise ennough.

[SolkaTruesilver]

If you want to adress me in term of my cultural identity, then I am Quebecois. French-Canadians (outside Quebec) have their own culture and behavior which is different. Calling me a "French-Canadian" is like calling a Scot a British. It's not wrong, but it's definetly not precise ennough.

What if I were to just call you a Canadian?

That would be like calling a French an "European", and dismissing any fleshed-out cultural differences that are present in my country. Quebec isn't merely one of Canada's subculture like the difference between Ontario and B.C., but an entirely different culture, different TV, comedians, actors, education structure, law system, etc...

[Captain Seafort]

That would be like calling a French an "European", and dismissing any fleshed-out cultural differences that are present in my country. Quebec isn't merely one of Canada's subculture like the difference between Ontario and B.C., but an entirely different culture, different TV, comedians, actors, education structure, law system, etc...

No, it wouldn't. France is a country, while Europe is merely a geographical term. A more appropriate comparison would be the one you raised earlier, in calling the Scots "British", which is both accurate and appropriate.

[Tyyr]

I could have sworn Quebec was in Canada.

[SolkaTruesilver]

No, it wouldn't. France is a country, while Europe is merely a geographical term.

Doesn't stop some Americans.

But there is a big cultural difference between Quebecois and Canadians, and many Quebecois see themselves as a distinct nation than Canada. We just happen to still be inside Canada. Country-wise, we are part of Canada, but if you want to talk about a people's behavior, ethics, morality, and trends, there is a world of difference between Canadians and Quebecois, so you would need to precide which nation you are talking about if you want to be appropriate.

Kinda like talking about Chinese in general, and then talking about the Hans, or the Cantonese or the Tibetans. Just because they are part of the same country doesn't mean they share the same culture or are the same people.

[Captain Seafort]

Doesn't stop some Americans

The problem with Americans is that they often conflate "British" and "English". This can cause problems if you accuse a Scot of being English - they don't like it. Calling them (or us) "British" is what people should be doing.

And Scotland is in Great Britain. What's your point?

That there's no problem with calling a Brit "British", nor is there any problem with calling a Canadian "Canadian".

[Tyyr]

Kinda like talking about Chinese in general, and then talking about the Hans, or the Cantonese or the Tibetans. Just because they are part of the same country doesn't mean they share the same culture or are the same people.

However geographically they are all still Chinese. Just because their are significant cultural differences between people living in Alabama and in California doesn't make either group stop being Americans or make people who refer to them as such incorrect.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Doesn't stop some Americans

The problem with Americans is that they often conflate "British" and "English". This can cause problems if you accuse a Scot of being English - they don't like it. Calling them (or us) "British" is what people should be doing.

What I meant is, I've read more than one american claiming that Europe was just like America, since you too have one single currency, you are made of various cultures, and people move around like in America. Ergo, americans are effectively superior, since they have been able to stop the nationalist conflicts that plagued Europe during most of its history. Americans can stop petty conflicts between different nationalities, and Europe, being just like America, is immature for failing to do so.

It kinda enrages me to read stuff like that

And Scotland is in Great Britain. What's your point?

That there's no problem with calling a Brit "British", nor is there any problem with calling a Canadian "Canadian".

Yhea, I retracted the previous comment you quoted.

[SolkaTruesilver]

However geographically they are all still Chinese. Just because their are significant cultural differences between people living in Alabama and in California doesn't make either group stop being Americans or make people who refer to them as such incorrect.

But all of them still celebrate the 4th of July, no? They all love the same sports, listen to the same music, follow the same law system, have the same TV shows available to them.

As different as they are, they are mere sub-cultures. We Quebecois claim to be of a different culture than mainstream Canada. Since "Canada" hasn't any name to define it's default culture outside of the appelation "Canada", we consider it faulty to be labelled as such. If, in Canada, there was the Quebecois and the (let's invent a name here) Ontarians, both being the majority cultures forming Canada, there would be little problem to be called Canadians.

But since there is just 2 mainstream cultures in Canada: the Canadians and the Quebecois, one insisting on being the only culture in Canada, the other insist being a distinct culture, I think it should be normal to at least acknowledge the difference between the two and call each by their own names.

but I guess that's the core of the big argument we have here. Canadians don't want to acknowledge us as a distinct culture/nation, even if we are, de facto, a different culture and nation. We call it "The Two Loneliness".

[Captain Seafort]

They all love the same sports, listen to the same music, follow the same law system, have the same TV shows available to them.

This is not, however, true of Scotland and the rest of the UK - they've got separate systems of law, taxation and government, much more so than Wales or Northern Ireland. They are still British, and should be referred to as such unless you want to specify a particular bit of the UK.

[Tyyr]

But all of them still celebrate the 4th of July, no?

Most.

They all love the same sports,

Nope.

listen to the same music,

Nope.

follow the same law system,

Nope.

have the same TV shows available to them.

Mostly.

But since there is just 2 mainstream cultures in Canada: the Canadians and the Quebecois, one insisting on being the only culture in Canada, the other insist being a distinct culture, I think it should be normal to at least acknowledge the difference between the two and call each by their own names.

Talk to the guys that make the maps.

[SolkaTruesilver]

They all love the same sports, listen to the same music, follow the same law system, have the same TV shows available to them.

This is not, however, true of Scotland and the rest of the UK - they've got separate systems of law, taxation and government, much more so than Wales or Northern Ireland. They are still British, and should be referred to as such unless you want to specify a particular bit of the UK.

But you wouldn't refer to a Scot as an English, right?

What if there wasn't an overarching designation named "British"? And that the name used to designate the whole British Island was "English"? You could insist all you want that they are "English", they would be determined to state that no, they are Scotts.

Well, that's the problem with Canada. We have a default name for both the country and the main culture. Saying that we are Canadian as a people is to renege on our Quebecois identity.

[Sionnach Glic]

Hell, wasn't there supposed to be some vote on whether Scotland should push for independence lately? I'm certain I heard something like that recently.

Doesn't stop some Americans.

And Europeans rightly consider such Americans to be idiots.

But there is a big cultural difference between Quebecois and Canadians, and many Quebecois see themselves as a distinct nation than Canada. We just happen to still be inside Canada. Country-wise, we are part of Canada, but if you want to talk about a people's behavior, ethics, morality, and trends, there is a world of difference between Canadians and Quebecois, so you would need to precide which nation you are talking about if you want to be appropriate.

As Seafort pointed out, there're some pretty big differences between Scotland and England, yet they're all still British, regardless of whether they like it or not. Similarly, the Quebecois are Canadian. Whether they like it or not they're still part of the country itself.

Kinda like talking about Chinese in general, and then talking about the Hans, or the Cantonese or the Tibetans. Just because they are part of the same country doesn't mean they share the same culture or are the same people.

Yet they'd still agree that they're all nationaly Chinese.

Well, except maybe for the Tibetans, but I doubt they'll be objecting so loudly these days.

What I meant is, I've read more than one american claiming that Europe was just like America, since you too have one single currency, you are made of various cultures, and people move around like in America. Ergo, americans are effectively superior, since they have been able to stop the nationalist conflicts that plagued Europe during most of its history. Americans can stop petty conflicts between different nationalities, and Europe, being just like America, is immature for failing to do so.

Again, we here in Europe consider such people to be idiots.

Hell, the EU doesn't even have just one currency. So they're not only idiots, but plain wrong.

But all of them still celebrate the 4th of July, no? They all love the same sports, listen to the same music, follow the same law system, have the same TV shows available to them.

As Seafort has pointed out, that's not necessarily true for other countries. Northern Ireland is still British, yet I don't see Gaelic Football catching on in England.

Actually, now that I think of it, can people from Northern Ireland be correctly called British? I've never thought about it until writing that last sentance, but the UK has always been The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland Northern Ireland, which would seem to suggest that "British" doesn't cover people from NI in the eyes of the UK government. Yet Ireland has always been reffered to as being one of the British Isles, which would suggest that it is a correct term. Hmm.

Well, correct or not, calling the wrong guy from NI a Brit is one of the quickest ways to start a bar fight, so it's probably best to just not try.

As different as they are, they are mere sub-cultures. We Quebecois claim to be of a different culture than mainstream Canada. Since "Canada" hasn't any name to define it's default culture outside of the appelation "Canada", we consider it faulty to be labelled as such. If, in Canada, there was the Quebecois and the (let's invent a name here) Ontarians, both being the majority cultures forming Canada, there would be little problem to be called Canadians.

Nationality says nothing about culture. There are many countries that have a wildly diverse range of cultures (Russia probably being one of the best examples), yet they're all still of the same nationality.

Similarly, Quebec is part of Canada, and thus its inhabitants are Canadians. Whether they have their own culture or not is irrelevant to that fact. The people of Nunavut are Canadians, yet I'd wager most of them live quite differently than people in Toronto.

[Captain Seafort]

Hell, wasn't there supposed to be some vote on whether Scotland should push for independence lately? I'm certain I heard something like that recently.

There was, but they shut up somewhat after RBS had to be pumped full of English taxes to stop it collapsing.

Actually, now that I think of it, can people from Northern Ireland be correctly called British?

It's probably accurate, based on the British Isles rather than Great Britain. Is it sensible? Hmm, let me think...

Well, correct or not, calling the wrong guy from NI a Brit is one of the quickest ways to start a bar fight, so it's probably best to just not try.

Look on the bright side - at least these day it would require less than a full infantry battalion to put a stop to said bar fight.

[Captain Seafort]

But you wouldn't refer to a Scot as an English, right?

Not if you wanted to keep all your teeth.

However, I wouldn't call you an Ontarian either.

Well, that's the problem with Canada. We have a default name for both the country and the main culture. Saying that we are Canadian as a people is to renege on our Quebecois identity.

What "main culture"? As SG pointed out, the culture of Nunavut and Toronto are very different. There is no homogeneous "Canadian" culture outside Quebec