"Put Up Or Shut Up" - Roger Ebert Talks Politics

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Sionnach Glic
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"Put Up Or Shut Up" - Roger Ebert Talks Politics

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Since the P&CE forum is nice and busy lately, I figured I'd throw this in for discussion. It's an interesting read, and those poll results he mentions are....interesting.

Put up or shut up
By
Roger Ebert
on September 1, 2010 6:11 AM | Permalink | Comments (528)

We already know the numbers. Pew finds that 18% of Americans believe President Obama is a Muslim. A new Newsweek poll, taken after the controversy over the New York mosque, places that figure at 24%. Even if he's not a Muslim, Newsweek finds, 31 percent think it's "definitely or probably" true that Obama "sympathizes with the goals of Islamic fundamentalists who want to impose Islamic law around the world."

When the focus is narrowed to Republicans, a Harris poll finds 57 percent of party members believe he is a Muslim, 22% believe he "wants the terrorists to win," and 24% believe he is the Antichrist.

These figures sadden me with the depth of thoughtlessness and credulity they imply. A democracy depends on an informed electorate to survive. An alarming number of Americans and a majority of Republicans are misinformed. The man who was swept into office by a decisive majority is now considered by many citizens to be the enemy. Some fundamentalists believe he is the Antichrist named by Jesus in the Bible.

This many Americans did not arrive at such conclusions on their own. They were persuaded by a relentless process of insinuation, strategic silence and cynical misinformation. Most of the leaders in this process have been cautious to avoid actually saying Obama is a Muslim. They speak in coded words and allow the implications to sink in. I recently watched Glenn Beck speaking at great length about Obama's Muslim father, but you would not have learned from Beck that the father, who Obama met only once, was not a practicing Muslim in any sense.

Rush Limbaugh has told his listeners he can find "no evidence" that Obama is a Christian. In Paul Krugman's op-ed column in the New York Times on 8/29, Limbaugh is quoted: "Imam Hussein Obama, is probably the best anti-American president we've ever had." Limbaugh obviously doesn't believe Obama is an imam. How many of his listeners realize that? Is he concerned that his words will be taken seriously?

These opinions have an agenda. They seek to demonize the Obama Presidency and mainstream liberal politics in general. The conservatism they prefer is not the traditional conservatism of such figures as Taft, Nixon, Reagan, Buckley or Goldwater. It is a frightening new radical fringe movement, financed by such as the newly notorious billionaire Koch brothers, whose hatred of government extends even to opposition to tax funding for public schools.

The money behind the movement has been shaken in its boots by the recent exposure of criminal activities in the money markets. Our economy has collapsed and it seemed clear to many Americans that the unregulated greed of Wall Street trading, especially in derivatives, was responsible. These were not investments in industry, the economy or the future. They were investments in a bold Ponzi scheme which defrauded home owners into fronting for a pyramid of worthless loans. Citizens lost their homes, investment houses went bankrupt, but the criminals responsible continued to pay themselves multi-million-dollar bonuses.

From the same column by Krugman: "Wall Street has turned on Mr. Obama with a vengeance: last month Steve Schwarzman, the billionaire chairman of the Blackstone Group, the private equity giant, compared proposals to end tax loopholes for hedge fund managers with the Nazi invasion of Poland."

Say what? Proposals to end loopholes? Read that again. Our recession and the collapse of the housing and jobs markets squeezed through those loopholes. And if you agree with the Democratic attempts to close them, you are compared to Hitler? Republicans in Washington vote nearly as a block against financial reform. Shouldn't the implications be clear to an informed electorate?

This process may soon be arriving at a moment of truth. The new issue of Vanity Fair mentions in its profile of Sarah Palin, as a casual aside, that Glenn Beck has booked the Dena'ina Center, the largest venue in Anchorage, for the date of September 11, 2010. What do you think that means? It could mean Beck simply wants to hold a rally in the home state of the woman who shared his podium on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial on the anniversary of Martin Luther King's famous speech.

Beck says he chose that date without realizing its significance. But it cannot be a coincidence that he has chosen 9/11. Nor does it take special insight to connect that date with Palin's many statements about the "Ground Zero Mosque" and the even more pointed "9/11 Mosque." The association is obvious: "9/11" feeds into "mosque" feeds into "Muslims" feeds into the misperception that Obama is a Muslim. Beck and Palin speak about "taking back America." The buried message is that they will take it back from Muslims. This is a heartless misuse of the tragedy of 9/11 and its victims.

If Beck had planned to come to Anchorage on another date, it wouldn't have excited much notice. But any meeting in Alaska on 9/11 without Palin also present will be anticlimactic. It's too far to go not to feature her. The symbolic date of 9/11 invests this event with the inescapable possibility that he and Palin plan to announce their Presidential candidacy for 2012.

This is their privilege, and is not exactly unexpected. What is inescapable, given the timing, is that their candidacy would benefit from the paranoia already infecting so many Americans about Obama's fictitious Islamic religion. Palin and Beck have so far both been content to let this process work without specific comment on their part. Their silence is a symptom of a cancer infecting American democracy. Our political immune system has only one antibody, and that is the truth.

The time is here for responsible Americans to put up or shut up. I refer specifically to those who have credibility among the guileless and credulous citizens who have been infected with notions so carefully nurtured. We cannot afford to allow the next election to proceed under a cloud of falsehood and delusion.

We know, because they've said so publicly, that George W. Bush, his father and Sen. John McCain do not believe Obama is a Muslim. This is the time -- now, not later -- for them to repeat that belief in a joint statement. Other prominent Republicans such as Mitt Romney, Newt Gingrich and Ron Paul also certainly do not believe it. They have a responsibility to make that clear by subscribing to the statement. Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh must join, or let their silence indict them. Limbaugh in particular must cease his innuendos and say, flat out, whether he believes the President is a Muslim or not. Yes or no. Does he have evidence, or does he have none? Yes or no.

To do anything less at this troubled time in our history would be a crime against America.



[ 11:39 p.m. 9/1/1010: Many readers have made the same point: What if Obama were a Muslim? What would be wrong with that? There would be nothing wrong. There is no religious test in this nation for holders of office. This is not a "Christian nation," although you often hear that, because of what is specified in the Constitution. America was founded by refugees from religious persecution, and the Founding Fathers deliberately wrote in safeguards to prevent an Established Religion.
From here.

So, does he have a point or is he talking rubbish?
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Re: "Put Up Or Shut Up" - Roger Ebert Talks Politics

Post by Mikey »

Of course he has a point. The masses that believe these idiotic things like that Obama is a Muslim fundie, terrorist sympathizer, etc., etc.; not to mention the finer fallacies like that Obama's original health-care plan was identical to a single-payer system or nationalized system; do not arrive at these idiotic saws on their own - they are fed them by people like Coulter, Limbaugh, Beck, et. al. While these talking heads may not directly make these statements, they do make such allusions in a manner which Ebert describes perfectly. They do so secure in the knowledge that these rightist masses do not possess the capacity or the desire to critically dissect these insinuations; and, if they spout something so far out in space that even the right-wing fundies might question it, they simply add "for America!" and can be assured that millions will heed the clarion without really bothering to think about what jingo they've adopted.
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Re: "Put Up Or Shut Up" - Roger Ebert Talks Politics

Post by Tsukiyumi »

This:
...the newly notorious billionaire Koch brothers, whose hatred of government extends even to opposition to tax funding for public schools.
Is my favorite part. Let me guess: they want all schools to be privately funded by tuition? Which would make sure that those damned lazy poor people stay poor and in their place!

...Said place being "doing most of the actual labor in this country, for the benefit of the rich folks who own the companies involved".

Seriously, I'm fairly conservative in my values, but if this is the sort of crap the right is spewing nowadays, I'm glad I picked the political stance I did.
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Re: "Put Up Or Shut Up" - Roger Ebert Talks Politics

Post by Graham Kennedy »

I think this is a symptom of something much broader. Information is now so freely available that it's become possible to believe anything one chooses to believe, no matter how absurd it is. The time was that distributing information to people was a lengthy, difficult process; print and distribute a newsletter, make and broadcast an advert, etc. Because it was expensive and hard, only people who were serious about it tended to get involved in it. As a result, they tended to be serious about getting it right. hey had biases and spin, to be sure, but they at least tried to get the basic facts of the issues right before putting their spin on them. And these things lasted but a short time and were gone - yesterday's newspapers are today's scrap.

Now, I can write up a webpage in ten minutes, and it's there forever for all the world to read. And there is no fact checking of it whatsoever. As a result, no matter what I believe, I can go onto the internet and find myself a pool of people who think the same and a pool of websites to tell me I'm right. Somebody else can attack my beliefs with the truth, but so what? To me all it means is that I have two sets of "facts" to choose from, and I will simply choose the set I agree with.

Because of this, there is an increasing trend for people to believe what they want to believe, and facts be damned. You see it everywhere, from creationsim to homeopathy to astrology to death panels to Obama is a Muslim to the "Ground Zero Mosque". Hell, a sizeable number of Americans STILL think the US found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, oh and Saddam was involved in 9/11.

We live in a world where truth is steadily becoming more and more irrelevant to daily life. To be honest, it scares the beejesus out of me.
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Re: "Put Up Or Shut Up" - Roger Ebert Talks Politics

Post by SolkaTruesilver »

I remember reading an article in The Economist about how people in the U.S. seemed to actually be concentrating in areas based on their ideological views. People from one area would listen Radio X, Tv X, Vote X, while the other area would watch Y, Tv Y and Vote Y.

So people will usually hang around people with similar belief and views, which makes them think their point of view is the reasonable and thought-out one, and anyone who disagree with them must be an illogical minority.

Which, off course, breeds extremism in any views, since you will find people in Orange County who think their neighbours are Liberal-minded socialists.
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Re: "Put Up Or Shut Up" - Roger Ebert Talks Politics

Post by sunnyside »

I found these surprising. Now I take the Harris Polls with a large number of grains of salt, since it's a polling service where people answer poll questions online, build up points, and cash them in for the occasional iPod or magazine subscription. So it's prone to sample bias, people just clicking through, and people "taking the piss" as I believe you Brits call it.

However the other two are are at least trying to be serious polls. Though I wish they'd asked a follow up question about what religion they think Obama says, he is. That would seperate the radically uninformed from those thinking that he's just saying he's a Christian like gay actors used to pretend to be straight or those that feel if you support abortion you aren't really a Christian etc.


Also either Ironically or deliberately, My Ebert uses the exact same technique he blames others for utilizing right here:
Tsukiyumi wrote:This:
...the newly notorious billionaire Koch brothers, whose hatred of government extends even to opposition to tax funding for public schools.
Is my favorite part. Let me guess: they want all schools to be privately funded by tuition? Which would make sure that those damned lazy poor people stay poor and in their place!

...Said place being "doing most of the actual labor in this country, for the benefit of the rich folks who own the companies involved".

Seriously, I'm fairly conservative in my values, but if this is the sort of crap the right is spewing nowadays, I'm glad I picked the political stance I did.
Now I don't really know the political positions of the Koch brothers, or all that much about them really.

But what I do know is dropping "opposition to tax funding for public schools" is dropped with the intent of getting the class warfare type response he got from Tsukiyumi.

There are a lot of variants on that position. The most common being support of vouchers for children of school age instead of directly funding public schools. The poor aren't any worse off, they just have the option of going somewhere other than the public schools. Many of which are doing a horrible job. That schools are failing America's youth is one of the few things both sides of the political isle can agree on. We're also having a sort of scandal down here in the D.C. Metro area where the teachers union is trying to prevent the removal of underperforming teachers in some of the infamously bad DC public schools.

Also these guys might be of the increasingly popular utopian Libertarian persuasion. I get the same vibe off of this bunch that I get off of communists. Except instead of believing that people will work as hard as they can without any reward for doing so, they believe that in a truly free market wages will be higher for the working class as the cost of government goes down, and schooling will be easily affordable, vastly superior, and probably also provided by companies wishing to enhance the effectiveness of their workforce.
SolkaTruesilver wrote:I remember reading an article in The Economist about how people in the U.S. seemed to actually be concentrating in areas based on their ideological views. People from one area would listen Radio X, Tv X, Vote X, while the other area would watch Y, Tv Y and Vote Y.
Wait, do you mean like people are making significant moves or altering their choice of home purchase based on the percieved ideological views of their expected neighbors? I mean aside from obvious stuff like going to the Philly Gayborhood, or moving to Salt Lake City after getting that second wife.
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Re: "Put Up Or Shut Up" - Roger Ebert Talks Politics

Post by stitch626 »

Now I don't really know the political positions of the Koch brothers, or all that much about them really.

But what I do know is dropping "opposition to tax funding for public schools" is dropped with the intent of getting the class warfare type response he got from Tsukiyumi.
Actually, that is his position. He simply doesn't support taxes, no matter what they go to.

If the taxes went to curing AIDS, he'd likely say no (likely only because you never can be 100% sure).
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Re: "Put Up Or Shut Up" - Roger Ebert Talks Politics

Post by Mikey »

Don't get started on the school voucher system. It may have worked to a mediocre/slightly acceptable level in Minnesota, but that sh*t won't fly on the coasts. It can't work, and it won't work. All it is (at least in the metropolitan corridors) is an excuse to deprive the schools that need more assistance and stronger supervision.
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Re: "Put Up Or Shut Up" - Roger Ebert Talks Politics

Post by Tyyr »

Mikey wrote: but that sh*t won't fly on the coasts. It can't work, and it won't work.
In all seriousness, why?
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Re: "Put Up Or Shut Up" - Roger Ebert Talks Politics

Post by Mikey »

Because:

#1 - Many of the worst inner-city areas have families that can't afford to send their kids to a private school, even a free one (or one paid for by vouchers.) In my wife's district - far from the worst in terms of economic situations on the street - the teachers have to send home paper and pencils, or else the kids cannot afford the materials with which to do their homework.

#2 - How are the kids who go to a private school via gub'mint couchers going to be received at those private schools? Anyone who tries to tell me that the ostracism and social elitism suffered by those kids won't have an educational effect is a liar of the worst type.

#3 - Vouchers are a euphemism for "deciding to not fix the public school system." Well, the right-of-aisle voucher pushers can decide to turn a blind eye to the problems with public schools, or decide not to do anything about them, all they want - but the problems will still be there, and only be exacerbated by a voucher system. In addition, what's going to happen to those private schools? In a voucher system, they must be legally obligated to accept vouchers/voucher students; so all at once, all the problems with public schools in the metro corridors will come home to roost in those private schools... except those schools - without local municipal supervision - will be far less able to deal with those issues.
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Re: "Put Up Or Shut Up" - Roger Ebert Talks Politics

Post by SolkaTruesilver »

sunnyside wrote:
SolkaTruesilver wrote:I remember reading an article in The Economist about how people in the U.S. seemed to actually be concentrating in areas based on their ideological views. People from one area would listen Radio X, Tv X, Vote X, while the other area would watch Y, Tv Y and Vote Y.
Wait, do you mean like people are making significant moves or altering their choice of home purchase based on the percieved ideological views of their expected neighbors? I mean aside from obvious stuff like going to the Philly Gayborhood, or moving to Salt Lake City after getting that second wife.
Well, it had a passive impact, meaning that people would buy homes close to their ideological kins. But I doubt they would go as far as sell their home and buy another just to get away from ideological opposites.

But on the other hand, remember that the US has one of the most mobile work pool in the world. So I am sure this has greater impact than in any other country.
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