Hitler's Britain

[Monroe]

Awhile ago Rochey posted a what if about Ireland attacking England. So I was on hulu and saw this documentary with the same spirit.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/137363/hitler ... nformation

[shran]

i would like to see that documentary, but it is not available outside the US. Is there some way I can access it elsewhere or perhaps play it on hulu anyway?

[Monroe]

i would like to see that documentary, but it is not available outside the US. Is there some way I can access it elsewhere or perhaps play it on hulu anyway?

That I don't know :-/

[Sionnach Glic]

Hulu isn't usable for people outside the US. But I think I found the documentary on Youtube. Is this it?

For the record, I think it's worth pointing out that Operation Sealion was an utterly implausable plan. Hitler could never have conquered Britain. It's about as likely as him conquering Russia.

Sealion was little more than a bad joke. The German "transports" were little more than river barges that would have been completely unsuitable for crossing the Channel - they had a speed of about (IIRC) 3 knots and would have simply sank in bad weather. Any vessels they sent would be at the mercy of the Royal Navy, which both the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe had no chance of taking out of the fight. Additionaly, these barges weren't capable of carrying anything other than a truck. This means damn all armoured support for the invading Germans and the majority of supplies would have to be air-dropped (and back then it was pot luck whether or not the supplies would even land in the right spot).

The idea of the Luftwaffe being able to wipe out the RAF is similarly moronic. Even if the Luftwaffe was able to force the RAF from its bases in southern Britain (and that's a big if), the Brits would simply have pulled their aircraft back to bases in the midlands. This would have put them completely out of range of any Luftwaffe aircraft, while still allowing them to counter-attack any ships moving across the channel (or indeed, aircraft carrying paratroopers). Sure, London would get hammered into something resembling Stalingrad, but the industrial base of Britain would be still standing. And while the Luftwaffe is bleeding itself dry launching raids on British cities, the RAF will simply be building up its strength to prepare for the coming invasion.

So to put it simply, there's no chance of the German military ever getting a foothold on Britain. At best they might be able to drop in a few hundred airborne troops, but they'd be quickly wiped out by the British army.

And even if the RN and RAF were to suddenly suffer a mass attack of retardation, thus allowing the Germans to land a division or so on the coast of England, they'd have no chance at all of surviving - let alone advancing. The documentary (admittedly, not seen it all yet) seems to think that the forces defending Britain would be made up of the cast of Dad's Army. But the best of the British Army was rescued and returned to Britain after Dunkirk - and by now they'd be fully rested and resupplied.

Additionaly, those were far from the only forces available to defend Britain. IIRC, Britain had almost a million men enrolled in the Army. Far more than enough to repel any invasion by Germany. All of these "Germany invades Britain" scenarios rely on equating the phrase "German army fights" with the phrase "German army triumphs". But in reality they the Wehrmacht, despite what the fanboys like to claim, were remarkably average. And the Brits weren't exactly just sitting around doing nothing - coastal fortifications had been constructed at the most likely landing points for an invasion. Any ground assault would have been met by fierce resistance. And let's not forget that Britain had built up quite a large supply of mustard gas, and Churchill at least was a proponent of using gas in combat.

So how would Operation Sealion go in reality? Well, it wouldn't. It was an impossible task, hence why it was never tried. But let's say Hitler suffers a fit of mass insanity (not exactly out of character for him - see Barbarosa) and orders the invasion anyway.

So they first try and parachute troops in. That's going to be a spectacular disaster, given that Britain's radar arrays are still active (the Luftwaffe's got damn all chance of taking them all out without crippling itself in the process). Thus any airborne attack is going to be spotted well before it reaches Britain. This gives the RAF (whether it's stationed in the Midlands or still in the south is mostly irrelevant) ample time to muster a defensive force. The German airborne assault goes down. Hard. With luck, a few hundred troops make it to their destination. But those troops will be completely cut off from support and will be lacking any supplies. Without supplies they can't advance any real distance, which will probably lead them to dig in wherever they are and hope that troops from the main invasion arrive to relieve them. Since this support isn't coming, they're wiped out by the British Army within a few days at most.

So now the Germans try for a full-scale invasion across the Channel. If it's even a mildly rough day, half the barges sink and their crews all drown right there and then. Assuming it's an unusualy calm day, the barges are sitting ducks for the RAF and RN. The Kriegsmarine is utterly incapable of doing anything for the invasion except perhaps sink a few RN vessels, but will be almost entirely wiped out themselves. The Luftwaffe, probably devastated after the failed airborne assault, would be incapable of achieving air superiority over the Channel. Thus the German barges are left to the mercy of the Navy's cannons and the Air Force's dive bombers. Since the barges are too slow and unwieldy to even retreat once the guys in charge realise that everything's gone FUBAR, the entire invasion force goes to the bottom of the sea.

Results: Wehrmacht suffers the loss of thousands (perhaps tens of thousands) of its best troops. Luftwaffe crippled after being forced to fight pitched battles against a superior force. Kriegsmarine (if present) suffer the loss of a number of ships.
The Brits, at most, suffer the loss of a few hundred aircraft, a handful of light RN vessels and maybe a few hundred soldiers digging out whatever airborne troops make it to Britain.

So to my knowledge Operation Sealion was an utterly impossible task for the Reich to achieve. I'm sure Seafort will be along within a few hours to give us a far more detailed explanation of why Sealion would be an utter disaster.

[Monroe]

Hulu isn't usable for people outside the US. But I think I found the documentary on Youtube. Is this it?

Yes that's it. I'm going to head to bed, I'll read the rest of what you wrote tomorrow.

[shran]

I have few questions regarding the situation.
1. Wasn't the home guard a rather weak defence force, being composed of people unfit for regular service?
2. I believe there was a change in the targets which the luftwaffe targeted. Instead of changing to more civilian targets, would continuing to bomb military targets result in a greater chance of a victory in teh battle of Britain?

[Aaron]

I have few questions regarding the situation.
1. Wasn't the home guard a rather weak defence force, being composed of people unfit for regular service?

To my knowledge, yes. However the Regular Force was in Britain as where some Commonwealth troops IIRC.

2. I believe there was a change in the targets which the luftwaffe targeted. Instead of changing to more civilian targets, would continuing to bomb military targets result in a greater chance of a victory in teh battle of Britain?

The tactics aren't what hamper the Luftwaffe; it's kit. The Germans lacked any sort of long range heavy bomber and the Brits possessed a capable radar system able to detect and direct fighters towards incoming craft. The Germans by comparison are already short of fuel when they arrive and have a very limited time in which to engage their targets or be unable to get home.

[Sionnach Glic]

1. Wasn't the home guard a rather weak defence force, being composed of people unfit for regular service?

Correct. The Home Guard being sent to the front lines would be a real "Well, we're fucked now" move (hell, for the first few years of the war most of them weren't even armed). But they were far from the only troops there. The British Army was, naturally, around in force. And as Kendall points out, troops from various Commonwealth nations were also stationed there. And they could also have very easily moved forces from Northern Ireland to Great Britain in the event of an invasion.

2. I believe there was a change in the targets which the luftwaffe targeted. Instead of changing to more civilian targets, would continuing to bomb military targets result in a greater chance of a victory in teh battle of Britain?

Continuing to bomb the airfields would indeed have put greater pressure on the RAF. But it still wouldn't have been enough. The Luftwaffe simply lacked the bombers required to put the airfields out of action, and building more bombers would mean building less fighters - leaving those new bombers open to RAF attacks. The presence of the British radar system (the first of its kind) also meant that the RAF had ample warning of any incoming attack, allowing them to quickly muster forces to meet the attack.

[shran]

Another few questions: 1. Was Ireland included in operation Seeloewe?
1a. Would Ireland co-operate with the Germans, given any present anti-British feelings?
2. How would the African front have fared when taking this into account?

[Sionnach Glic]

1. Was Ireland included in operation Seeloewe?

No. Sealion was aimed at Britain. Detailed plans for an invasion of Ireland (Operation Green) were drawn up, but they were intended to be used in "liberating" the Irish Free State if Britain invaded us (as some people thought was a serious possibility at the time). However, according to Hitler:

"A landing in Ireland can be attempted only if Ireland requests help. For the present our envoy must ascertain whether De Valera [Eamon De Valera - Prime Minister of the IFS] desires support and whether he wishes to have his military equipment supplemented by captured British war material (guns and ammunition), which could be sent to him in independent ships. Ireland is important to the Commander in Chief, Air, as his base for attacks on the north-west ports of Britain, although weather conditions must be investigated. The occupation of Ireland might lead to the end of the war."

- David Irving, "Hitler's War", p 185.

The plans were, obviously, never enacted. The plans for Operation Green ended up falling into the hands of the Irish police, and were handed over to both the Irish and British governments. Amusingly, this prompted Britain to draw up their own plans for invading Ireland if we invited the Nazis around for a drink while we naively thought that Britain was prepared to run to our defence.

1a. Would Ireland co-operate with the Germans, given any present anti-British feelings?

Assuming Operation Green and Plan W (Brit plans to invade Ireland) are never carried out? It's certainly possible, depending on how Hitler treats us. If, say, he promised to hand over Northern Ireland to us and ensured our existance as a sovereign nation? It's quite possible that De Valera might have decided to team up with him.

However, it would probably have been a rather unpopular move. While we certainly liked the Nazis more than we liked the Brits at this point, a large number of Irish citizens were serving in the British Army due to the lack of jobs in Ireland. Thus any successful invasion of Britain would have resulted in quite a number of Irishmen being killed. That, naturaly, would tend to sour public opinion towards the Germans. The fact that U-Boats occasionally sank our shipping and the Luftwaffe bombed Dublin once by mistake also kind of pissed us off.

However, it should be kept in mind that most of the Irish public was fairly clueless about what was going on in the war. De Valera was almost obsessive about making sure that we did nothing to annoy either side of the war, and censored damn near everything he could once an act was passed allowing him emergency powers. Indeed, newspapers and radio broadcasters were prohibited from even calling it a war. Instead it was reffered to as the European Emergency.

I'd imagine that the most likely course of action for the government of the Irish Free State would be to do their best to remain neutral, but on Hitler's good side. But with enough bribes (eg, Northern Ireland) it could well have been possible to get us to declare our support for Germany.

2. How would the African front have fared when taking this into account?

Assuming Britain is knocked out of the war? I'm not too sure the African front would even open up. I imagine the US would instead invade Britain and then move on to Europe directly.

[stitch626]

Really, the only way for Hiter to have taken Brittan would have been for him to bomb them till almost every person was dead. At which point the land would be filled with craters, and rather useless anyway.

[Deepcrush]

I feel proud of myself for getting through about 10 minutes of that show. The whole thing is based off the idea that Germany had triple its normal resources and that the English just bent over. While I'm not England's number one fan. I can promise you that no "Proper Englishman" would do any less then kick the ever loving hell out of the Germans upon landing.

Even Hitler in all his stupidity never saw the Invasion of England as a smart move. That should say something to us all.

[Sionnach Glic]

"[...] we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle [...]"

[Deepcrush]

And I believe every word of it. The English are a nation built of the seed from the Black Knight of Monty Python.

[McAvoy]

I mean honestly, Hitler was overreaching by 1940's anyway. It was practically impossible for Germany to invade and KEEP the British Isles. Even if they did, there would still be resistence and then of course you have the US of A to worry about. Russia too after they get their act together.