Italy Bribes Taliban, Stops, Gets 10 French Soldiers Killed

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Italy Bribes Taliban, Stops, Gets 10 French Soldiers Killed

Post by Sionnach Glic »

French troops were killed after Italy hushed up 'bribes' to Taleban

When ten French soldiers were killed last year in an ambush by Afghan insurgents in what had seemed a relatively peaceful area, the French public were horrified.

Their revulsion increased with the news that many of the dead soldiers had been mutilated - and with the publication of photographs showing the militants triumphantly sporting their victims' flak jackets and weapons. The French had been in charge of the Sarobi area, east of Kabul, for only a month, taking over from the Italians; it was one of the biggest single losses of life by Nato forces in Afghanistan.

What the grieving nation did not know was that in the months before the French soldiers arrived in mid-2008, the Italian secret service had been paying tens of thousands of dollars to Taleban commanders and local warlords to keep the area quiet, The Times has learnt. The clandestine payments, whose existence was hidden from the incoming French forces, were disclosed by Western military officials.

US intelligence officials were flabbergasted when they found out through intercepted telephone conversations that the Italians had also been buying off militants, notably in Herat province in the far west. In June 2008, several weeks before the ambush, the US Ambassador in Rome made a démarche, or diplomatic protest, to the Berlusconi Government over allegations concerning the tactic.

However, a number of high-ranking officers in Nato have told The Times that payments were subsequently discovered to have been made in the Sarobi area as well.

Western officials say that because the French knew nothing of the payments they made a catastrophically incorrect threat assessment.

"One cannot be too doctrinaire about these things," a senior Nato officer in Kabul said. "It might well make sense to buy off local groups and use non-violence to keep violence down. But it is madness to do so and not inform your allies."

On August 18, a month after the Italian force departed, a lightly armed French patrol moved into the mountains north of Sarobi town, in the district of the same name, 65km (40 miles) east of Kabul. They had little reason to suspect that they were walking into the costliest battle for the French in a quarter of a century.

Operating in an arc of territory north and east of the Afghan capital, the French apparently believed that they were serving in a relatively benign district. The Italians they had replaced in July had suffered only one combat death in the previous year. For months the Nato headquarters in Kabul had praised Italian reconstruction projects under way around Sarobi. When an estimated 170 insurgents ambushed the force in the Uzbin Valley the upshot was a disaster. "They took us by surprise," one French troop commander said after the attack.

A Nato post-operations assessment would sharply criticise the French force for its lack of preparation. "They went in with two platoons [approximately 60 men]," said one senior Nato officer. "They had no heavy weapons, no pre-arranged air support, no artillery support and not enough radios."

Had it not been for the chance presence of some US special forces in the area who were able to call in air support for them, they would have been in an even worse situation. "The French were carrying just two medium machine guns and 100 rounds of ammunition per man. They were asking for trouble and the insurgents managed to get among them."

A force from the 8th Marine Parachute Regiment took an hour and a half to reach the French over the mountains. "We couldn't see the enemy and we didn't know how many of them there were," said another French officer. "After 20 minutes we started coming under fire from the rear. We were surrounded."

The force was trapped until airstrikes forced the insurgents to retreat the next morning. By then ten French soldiers were dead and 21 injured.

The French public were appalled when it emerged that many of the dead had been mutilated by the insurgents- a mixed force including Taleban members and fighters from Hizb e-Islami.

A few weeks later French journalists photographed insurgents carrying French assault rifles and wearing French army flak jackets, helmets and, in one case, a dead soldier's watch.

Two Western military officials in Kabul confirmed that intelligence briefings after the ambush said that the French troops had believed they were moving through a benign area - one which the Italian military had been keen to show off to the media as a successful example of a "hearts and minds" operation.

Another Nato source confirmed the allegations of Italian money going to insurgents. "The Italian intelligence service made the payments, it wasn't the Italian Army," he said. "It was payments of tens of thousands of dollars regularly to individual insurgent commanders. It was to stop Italian casualties that would cause political difficulties at home."

When six Italian troops were killed in a bombing in Kabul last month it resulted in a national outpouring of grief and demands for troops to be withdrawn. The Nato source added that US intelligence became aware of the payments. "The Italians never acknowledged it, even though there was intercepted telephone traffic on the subject," said the source. "The démarche was the result. It was not publicised because it would have caused a diplomatic nightmare. We found out about the Sarobi payments later."

In Kabul a high-ranking Western intelligence source was scathing. "It's an utter disgrace," he said. "Nato in Afghanistan is a fragile enough construct without this lot working behind our backs. The Italians have a hell of a lot to answer for."

Haji Abdul Rahman, a tribal elder from Sarobi, recalled how a benign environment became hostile overnight. "There were no attacks against the Italians. People said the Italians and Taleban had good relations between them.

"When the country [nationality of the forces] changed and the French came there was a big attack on them. We knew the Taleban came to the city and we knew that they didn't carry out attacks on the Italian troops but we didn't know why."

The Italian Defence Ministry referred inquiries to the Prime Minister's Office. A spokesman said: "The American Ambassador in Rome did not make any formal complaint. He merely asked for information, first from the previous Government and then from the current Government. The allegations were denied and they are totally unfounded."

Silvio Berlusconi, the Prime Minister, defeated Romano Prodi at elections in April 2008.

The claims are not without precedent. In October 2007 two Italian agents were kidnapped in western Afghanistan; one was killed in a rescue by British special forces. It was later alleged in the Italian press that they had been kidnapped while making payments to the Taleban.
The Times

If this is true, then the Italian government has a shitload of grovelling to do. How the fuck can you be so stupid that you don't mention that the only thing preventing attacks is mass bribery, to the people who are coming into the area? Jesus Christ.
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Re: Italy Bribes Taliban, Stops, Gets 10 French Soldiers Killed

Post by Tyyr »

Wow. Well they obviously didn't mention it because admitting it would have gotten out and looked pretty awful. So they kept their mouthes shut and hoped the Taliban would go easy on the French or the French would learn quick. Neither happened and a lot of guys died for no good reason.

The families of those killed and wounded, I just don't know how you even begin to explain that to them.
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Re: Italy Bribes Taliban, Stops, Gets 10 French Soldiers Killed

Post by Mikey »

...and before this came out, insult was added to injury by the (understandable) statement that the French soldiers were killed because of faulty French threat assessment.

I just can't understand why the Italians wouldn't have just owned up to keeping the area quiet by buying the peace. Surely they'd figure out that the violence would return once they stopped paying?
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Re: Italy Bribes Taliban, Stops, Gets 10 French Soldiers Killed

Post by kostmayer »

The Nato Senior in the story even says paying bribes to keep an area peaceful might make strategic sense. If the Italians had owned up to it before the French entered, I doubt anyone would have had a huge problem with it. They certainly appreciate the Italian secret service's honest for holding their hands up and admitting to paying off the enemy, rather then allowing their allies to be endangered unneccesarily.
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Re: Italy Bribes Taliban, Stops, Gets 10 French Soldiers Killed

Post by Mikey »

Exactly my point. Suffering a little international ribbing about the state of their military is a small price to pay compared to letting your so-called allies get slaughtered.
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Re: Italy Bribes Taliban, Stops, Gets 10 French Soldiers Killed

Post by Monroe »

Wow so Italy has been giving the Taliban money to kill other NATO soldiers. Italy's got a shit load of explaining to do.
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Re: Italy Bribes Taliban, Stops, Gets 10 French Soldiers Killed

Post by Mikey »

Monroe wrote:Wow so Italy has been giving the Taliban money to kill other NATO soldiers. Italy's got a s**t load of explaining to do.
No, more like giving them money to play nice... and then not telling the other NATO soldiers how they were kept so quiet.
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Re: Italy Bribes Taliban, Stops, Gets 10 French Soldiers Killed

Post by Sionnach Glic »

kostmayer wrote:The Nato Senior in the story even says paying bribes to keep an area peaceful might make strategic sense. If the Italians had owned up to it before the French entered, I doubt anyone would have had a huge problem with it. They certainly appreciate the Italian secret service's honest for holding their hands up and admitting to paying off the enemy, rather then allowing their allies to be endangered unneccesarily.
Hell, it's been a tactic that's been used since the days of the Roman Republic, and probably long before that, too. The US did it all the time as well. IIRC, they paid a shitload of money to keep various insurgent leaders quiet during the "Surge" a few years ago. It's not as if this is some sort of horriffic taboo thing that they were doing.

Oh, and last year Italy denied doing anything of the sort.
Italians bribed the Taleban all over Afghanistan, say officials

A Taleban commander and two senior Afghan officials confirmed yesterday that Italian forces paid protection money to prevent attacks on their troops.

After furious denials in Rome of a Times report that the Italian authorities had paid the bribes, the Afghans gave further details of the practice. Mohammed Ishmayel, a Taleban commander, said that a deal was struck last year so that Italian forces in the Sarobi area, east of Kabul, were not attacked by local insurgents.

The payment of protection money was revealed after the death of ten French soldiers in August 2008 at the hands of large Taleban force in Sarobi. French forces had taken over the district from Italian troops, but were unaware of secret Italian payments to local commanders to stop attacks on their forces and consequently misjudged local threat levels.

Mr Ishmayel said that under the deal it was agreed that "neither side should attack one another. That is why we were informed at that time, that we should not attack the Nato troops." The insurgents were not informed when the Italian forces left the area and assumed they had broken the deal. Afghan officials also said they were aware of the practice by Italian forces in other areas of Afghanistan.

A senior Afghan government official told The Times that US special forces killed a Taleban leader in western Herat province a week ago. He was said to be one of the commanders who received money from the Italian Government. A senior Afghan army officer also repeated the allegation, adding that agreements had been made in both Sarobi and Herat.

The report prompted the French Opposition to demand an urgent explanation to parliament, describing the details as "very serious". The Defence Ministry said that it was aware of "rumours" that linked bribery to the ambush but claimed that the reports had no basis.

In Rome, Ignazio La Russa, the Defence Minister, insisted the allegations were "absolute rubbish". He said: "I had been minister for a short time [in the summer of 2008], I've never received news from the secret services of payment to the chiefs of the Taleban."

The minister added that a benevolent attitude toward the Italians who serve in Afghanistan had nothing to do with alleged bribes, but was due, instead, to "the behaviour of our military, which is very different compared to that of other contingents".

A statement released by the office of Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian Prime Minister, also denied the claims. "The Berlusconi Government has never authorised nor has it allowed any form of payment toward members of the Taleban insurgency," it said.

Neither, the statement continued, did it know of any such payment by the previous Government.

Mr Berlusconi was elected for a third non-consecutive term in April 2008, replacing the centre-left Government headed by Romano Prodi.

The statement pointed out that in the first half of last year the Italian contingent suffered "several attacks", including in the Sarobi district where one soldier, Francesco Pezzulo, was killed in February 2008.

The US Embassy in Rome declined to confirm or to deny the report that US officials issued a démarche, an official complaint, to the Italian Government over alleged payments to insurgents in June 2008.

A spokesman said that the embassy "does not comment on internal diplomatic conversations that may or may not have occurred".

The Italian Defence Ministry confirmed on Wednesday that the US Government had raised the issue of payments to insurgents, but said that it was not a formal protest, but rather an "informal request for information" about such payments.

Mr Prodi also denied knowledge of the alleged payments to local insurgents.

He told The Times: "This is the first time I have ever heard such accusations and I can say that there is no base for them. I know absolutely nothing of this."

Fabio Evangelisti, of the opposition Italy of Values party, said: "The details of the case, charged by The Times, appear per se to be serious and worthy of maximum attention and assessment by our Government. The ready denials of Ministers La Russa and Rotondi are not sufficient to dissipate the doubts and insinuations about our military operations."
Way to go, Italy.
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Re: Italy Bribes Taliban, Stops, Gets 10 French Soldiers Killed

Post by Mikey »

Sionnach Glic wrote:Hell, it's been a tactic that's been used since the days of the Roman Republic, and probably long before that, too.
Indeed, that's how the Byzantine (Eastern) Roman Empire kept the Huns at bay before the rise of Attila - a yearly stipend, plus the land that came to be known (duh!) as Hungary. I thin the shock here is not that Italy did such a thing; rather, it's that Italy conveniently ommitted that part of the brief when they handed the oversight of the area over to France.
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Re: Italy Bribes Taliban, Stops, Gets 10 French Soldiers Killed

Post by Teaos »

The dont mind the bribing so much, that shit happens all the time, hell its used a lot in Iraq by the Americans.

But to not let that vital information out to the people taking over from you...
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Re: Italy Bribes Taliban, Stops, Gets 10 French Soldiers Killed

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Aye, you'd think telling the new guys that "Hey, the reason why it's so peacefull over here is because we've been paying the locals to play nice" would have crossed someone's mind. :roll:
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Re: Italy Bribes Taliban, Stops, Gets 10 French Soldiers Killed

Post by Aaron »

Mikey wrote:
No, more like giving them money to play nice... and then not telling the other NATO soldiers how they were kept so quiet.
The Taliban isn't a unified group anyways, so this probably just paid for the cell leaders booze, blow and broads.

It was effective though, seriously we bribe the warlords, we may as well bribe the Taliban as well. Probably cheaper then what we're doing now, and more effective.
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Re: Italy Bribes Taliban, Stops, Gets 10 French Soldiers Killed

Post by Captain Seafort »

Cpl Kendall wrote:It was effective though, seriously we bribe the warlords, we may as well bribe the Taliban as well. Probably cheaper then what we're doing now, and more effective.
That's probably what the plan is. The bloke in charge of overall strategy now is General Lamb - the same bloke who planned the Iraqi surge. It worked there, so why not in Afghanistan as well (with whatever tweaks are required for local variations).
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Re: Italy Bribes Taliban, Stops, Gets 10 French Soldiers Killed

Post by sunnyside »

Ok, bribing local warlords to be on your side, pretty common. Not telling the next group? Crappy, but all too common when coordinating international forces. Heck, they should be glad they didn't get mowed down by an A-10.

So, yes, the Italians have much to answer to, especially since they tried to cover it up.

But what the heck is with the French? First off they must have either not contacted or possibly actually snubbed the local warlords. Usually folks like that aren't shy about requesting money.

And then what is a platoon doing with that little weaponry and lack of support? At best it was a benign area IN A WARZONE. Some things should just be standard operating procedure.
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Re: Italy Bribes Taliban, Stops, Gets 10 French Soldiers Killed

Post by Captain Seafort »

sunnyside wrote:But what the heck is with the French? First off they must have either not contacted or possibly actually snubbed the local warlords.
It wasn't the local warlords who were the culprits - it was the Taliban. The warlords at least pay lip service to Kabul.
And then what is a platoon doing with that little weaponry and lack of support? At best it was a benign area IN A WARZONE.
Technically, it isn't - AFAIK it's aid to the civil power, no different legally to being used as riot police. Plus, based on the Italians' track record, there wasn't much going on in the area, so they had good reason to treat it as glorified police work, unlike the chaos down south.
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