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There may be hope for us yet!

Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:15 pm
by Captain Picard's Hair
The moderators or admins may feel free to merge this with one of the other threads in which religion is currently being discussed, if this thread is deemed redundant.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/opini ... ow.html?em
Op-Ed Columnist
Heaven for the Godless?
By CHARLES M. BLOW

In June, the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life published a controversial survey in which 70 percent of Americans said that they believed religions other than theirs could lead to eternal life.

This threw evangelicals into a tizzy. After all, the Bible makes it clear that heaven is a velvet-roped V.I.P. area reserved for Christians. Jesus said so: "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." But the survey suggested that Americans just weren't buying that.

The evangelicals complained that people must not have understood the question. The respondents couldn't actually believe what they were saying, could they?

So in August, Pew asked the question again. (They released the results last week.) Sixty-five percent of respondents said - again - that other religions could lead to eternal life. But this time, to clear up any confusion, Pew asked them to specify which religions. The respondents essentially said all of them.

And they didn't stop there. Nearly half also thought that atheists could go to heaven - dragged there kicking and screaming, no doubt - and most thought that people with no religious faith also could go.

What on earth does this mean?

One very plausible explanation is that Americans just want good things to come to good people, regardless of their faith. As Alan Segal, a professor of religion at Barnard College told me: "We are a multicultural society, and people expect this American life to continue the same way in heaven." He explained that in our society, we meet so many good people of different faiths that it's hard for us to imagine God letting them go to hell. In fact, in the most recent survey, Pew asked people what they thought determined whether a person would achieve eternal life. Nearly as many Christians said you could achieve eternal life by just being a good person as said that you had to believe in Jesus.

Also, many Christians apparently view their didactic text as flexible. According to Pew's August survey, only 39 percent of Christians believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, and 18 percent think that it's just a book written by men and not the word of God at all. In fact, on the question in the Pew survey about what it would take to achieve eternal life, only 1 percent of Christians said living life in accordance with the Bible.

Now, there remains the possibility that some of those polled may not have understood the implications of their answers. As John Green, a senior fellow at the Pew Forum, said, "The capacity of ignorance to influence survey outcomes should never be underestimated." But I don't think that they are ignorant about this most basic tenet of their faith. I think that they are choosing to ignore it ... for goodness sake.

Re: There may be hope for us yet!

Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:13 pm
by Mikey
Wait... I don't want to go to Christian heaven.

Re: There may be hope for us yet!

Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:59 pm
by Mark
Don't worry. They'll forgive you :bangwall:

I remember, at the Christian school I've mentioned several times before, I was once put on the spot when the same teacher I mentioned previous run ins with, asked me WHY I just refused to accept Christ as my savior. I replied, "I'd feel kind of stupid, spending my life studying the bible, going to church, doing what my minister tells me to do and not doing what I'm told not to do, spending what years of life I have trying to convert OTHERS to said religion, only to die, go to heaven, and meet Buhdda."

I got two weeks detention for that one.

Re: There may be hope for us yet!

Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:02 pm
by Captain Seafort
:lol:

So, cumulatively, how many years detention did you manage to accumulate running rings round various characters lacking two brain cells to rub together?

Re: There may be hope for us yet!

Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:36 pm
by Mark
It's funny you put it that way. In a 9 month school year, with four years of high school, DAMNED close to a full year. :mrgreen:

In fact, not only did they made a joke of it in our senior yearbook, but detention became known as "Mark's 8th period" or "Mark's class" by my junior year.

The principle once asked me if I had ever though discretion might be the better part of valor with that particular teacher. I responded that a German teacher named Von Meter, who once referred to the Nazis as the finest form of government of it's time, and who hated jews wasn't very likely to spark my "discretion". The principle just stayed out of our private little war by my junior year.

Re: There may be hope for us yet!

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:39 am
by Tsukiyumi
Mark wrote:..German teacher named Von Meter, who once referred to the Nazis as the finest form of government of it's time, and who hated jews wasn't very likely to spark my "discretion"...
Doesn't sound like someone who'd get any "discretion" from me either. :?

Re: There may be hope for us yet!

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:22 pm
by Sionnach Glic
Hell, I once got kicked out of my religion class permanently in secondary school for arguing with the priest trying to teach us.
I went to the school's library for that class to study instead. I think it worked out nicely.

As for the OP, what does this actualy matter? 70% of Americans could believe the moon is made of cheese, that doesn't make it so. The Bible explicitly says Heaven is for God's fan club only. Since the Bible is supposedly the word of God, I'd consider it more an authority on Christianity than a bunch of rednecks.

Re: There may be hope for us yet!

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:54 pm
by Captain Picard's Hair
Rochey wrote:As for the OP, what does this actualy matter? 70% of Americans could believe the moon is made of cheese, that doesn't make it so. The Bible explicitly says Heaven is for God's fan club only. Since the Bible is supposedly the word of God, I'd consider it more an authority on Christianity than a bunch of rednecks.
I meant this to speak more of Americans than of Heaven per se: it just says to me that the average person here isn't nearly as dogmatic or intolerant as all the rabble would make it seem. Perhaps now that should have been expected, but it's still heartening to not only see it verified but to see the extent of it. That's what my thread title was meant to refer to also, if anyone is confused (guess it's a double entendre, though)

Re: There may be hope for us yet!

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:29 pm
by Sionnach Glic
Ah, right.

Re: There may be hope for us yet!

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:20 pm
by Mark
Well, it kind of fits. People who are as attracted to Trek as we are GENERALLY tend to be rather open minded, I've noticed.

Re: There may be hope for us yet!

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:26 pm
by Mikey
And I hate all people who aren't. :P

Re: There may be hope for us yet!

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:22 pm
by RK_Striker_JK_5
I've always believed that God didn't care how you prayed or even if you did, just that you lead a good, decent life.

Re: There may be hope for us yet!

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:42 pm
by Captain Seafort
Starfleetjedi/SDN debate split to here.