EU: "Democracy? What's that?"

[Sionnach Glic]

As some of you may have heard, the EU has decided to make us vote again on the Lisbon Treaty, despite it getting solidly slapped down just a few months ago.

For those of you that don't know, a few years ago the EU decided to put together a constitution and get the various countries to vote it in. Unfortunately, France, Ireland, Denmark (I think) and a few other countries voted against the treaty. So they waited a few years and then came up with a new idea: let's not let the population decide on it, but instead just get the governments to aprove it.
Unfortunately for them, the Irish constitution requires that such matters be voted on by the population. Our pro-EU government was pretty sure that it'd get voted in with no problem, and a lot of major politicians attacthed their name to the "Vote Yes" campaign, with many (including our Prime Minister) pretty much assuring the EU that we were going to have no problems.
Roll on to the elections, and the treaty gets solidly shot down by the public, resulting in a lot of "oh shit"s from various politicians, and causing our government quite a bit of embarassment when they told the EU that the clear-cut victory had actualy been a solid defeat.

Of course, a little thing like the vast majority of the populace saying they don't want the treaty wasn't going to put the EU off. So for a little while Ireland got a tonne of flack from the EU (including the Germans saying we should be kicked out altogether for daring to voice our opinion), and the EU went looking for a way to get us to vote again. So now they've changed the wording of the document in question and changed some minor, irrelevant stuff in it so that they can get us to vote on it again, despite us knocking it down twice in a row.

And people wonder why I despise what the EU's become in the last few decades.

I can only hope that the public will continue the trend of giving the EU the collective finger. Most of the population seems pretty anti-EU from what I can tell, and when a new vote was announced every media source in the country was screaming about it (among the headlines I've seen today have been "It came from Belgium..." and "The EU strikes back"), so hopefully no one will be tricked into thinking anything about the document has actualy changed. On the other hand, I'm worried the pro-treaty campaign may use the economic crisis to frighten people into voting it in (ie, "vote yes or the economy's fucked!").

That said, the one silver lining to this is that it may bring the government that little bit closer to being kicked out of power. Fianna Faíl and the Green Party are already up to their necks in shit over the 2009 budget, and this can only make it even more likely the two will be voted down (and maybe then we'll see the back of Brian Cowen, our jackass Taoiseach).

[/rant]

[Aaron]

So this is what, the fourth time they've pulled this with various countries?

[Mikey]

Most of the population seems pretty anti-EU from what I can tell

Yeah, I'd say failing two referendums in a row could indicate that.

Unfortunately, times like these tend to feed governing entities which strip rights from the individuals. Now, I'm not comparing the EU to the Khmer Rouge, but hopefully Ireland will again stand up and say clearly that the EU is designed to serve its constituents, NOT the other way around.

[Graham Kennedy]

This is absolutely typical of the EU. It aspires to be a nation, but it is absolutely lacking in the basic requirements - little things like populations who actually WANT to be part of the same country, a common culture, etc. Their tactic for decades has been to try and do their nation building a tiny little bit at a time, each time proclaiming that it's no big deal, just a little reworking of the existing institutions, it will just make everyone's life a bit easier is all.

The EU is dishonest and positively anti democracy. In my mind it is shaping up to be essentially a dictatorship.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

Well then, go Ireland!

[Captain Seafort]

I can only hope that the public will continue the trend of giving the EU the collective finger. Most of the population seems pretty anti-EU from what I can tell, and when a new vote was announced every media source in the country was screaming about it (among the headlines I've seen today have been "It came from Belgium..." and "The EU strikes back"), so hopefully no one will be tricked into thinking anything about the document has actualy changed. On the other hand, I'm worried the pro-treaty campaign may use the economic crisis to frighten people into voting it in (ie, "vote yes or the economy's f***ed!").

From what I've heard, the latest stunt is a few political concessions basically saying "we won't enforce one or two bits of the constitution that really got your dander up". It's asking Ireland to believe the latest words of politicians over their repeatedly expressed views, and the treaty they put their signatures to. Hands up who'd be willing to do that.

Onwards Ireland, not just for yourselves but for every sovereign nation on the continent.

[Sionnach Glic]

Now that you mention it, I just realised that Ireland's litteraly the only thing stopping the EU shoving this into force. Never thought I'd see the day that Ireland's views on something actualy mattered. No wonder the German delegation was so eager to kick us out, the fact that we're required to vote on all such matters must be one hell of an obstacle to the EU's plans.

Well, we kicked one empire's ass* before, I see no reason we can't do it again.

*Definitions of ass-kicking may vary

[Mikey]

*Definitions of ass-kicking may vary

Seriously, though, GK's right - what the EU is doing is tantamount to the nation-building at the end of WWI which ignored traditional cultural/ethnic boundaries. Ask any Serbian or Kosovar widow or orphan how that turned out. The difference is that the EU is attempting top obtain a public mandate.

hurá do Éire!

(I sincerely hope I got the non-genitive form of the word "for.")

[colmquinn]

listening to the radio this evening on my way home from work (Todayfm Matt Cooper show for Rochey) they had one pro and one anti treaty guy on. The pro politician (sorry I can''t rem his name) actually stated that;
(Not a direct quote but the gist of it was)

'China will be the worlds dominant power in 20 - 30 years, America will still be very powerful but not so much as now and we want to be able to fight our corner against odds like that and having a rotating EU presidency every 6 months with 27 to 35 member# states with a commissioner each just isn't going to work'
(# Other countries are looking to join up it seems, Iceland now wants in now that their country has basically gone bankrupt!)

Quite clearly this guy has bought into the whole EU superstate idea.

[Mikey]

So, now he's actually promoting the idea of an EU dictatorship?

[Grundig]

Wow, that's really got to be infuriating. I have to be honest, I only found out the EU existed when I got to college in 1999. Since then I've assumed that yeah, there would be some bumps in the road for Europe, but that it was pretty much a good thing overall... I thought, hate the US all you want, but uniting the states has given this country so much of its power and stability, it's gotta be a good idea for Europe too. The idea that Europe was doing something similar (at least, it seems similar on the surface) was actually heartening to me, also, because I didn't like the idea that the balance of power was so out of whack. So, to hear that there's actually lots of opposition to the EU-ification of Europe is surprising, and I do admit I'm pretty uninformed. I can imagine that it would be more difficult for European countries to unify than American colonies, because Europe has so much more history, and its cultures celebrate their uniqueness. What I'm unclear about is what exactly people are afraid of. Is it the idea of losing sovereignty? Is it the possibility of loss of power? Is it the idea of losing a cultural distinctiveness? I mean, it's probably many things; I'm just trying to get a better sense of how people are feeling about the whole thing.

[colmquinn]

Is it the idea of losing sovereignty? Is it the possibility of loss of power? Is it the idea of losing a cultural distinctiveness? I mean, it's probably many things;

That and I don't want a French man telling me what to do

[Mikey]

I think the "fear" or resistance is more basic than any of those - it seems to be that the EU is trying to enforce its will over the will of the people, rather than be guided by the will of the people.

[Grundig]

Oh, well @#!$ that.


And Colmquinn, I can understand your POV too - I'm not all that thrilled to be led by Mr. Texan Biblethumper(no offense, Tsu)...

[Sionnach Glic]

So, now he's actually promoting the idea of an EU dictatorship?

And basing that suggestion on good ol' fashioned jingoistic fear-mongering, apparently.

I'm surprised at hearing Iceland's interested in joining. They'd always seemed pretty anti-EU to me, and I think this is the first time they've ever expressed interest in joining.

I have to be honest, I only found out the EU existed when I got to college in 1999.

I'm not surprised. Up 'till a decade or so ago, the EU was relegated purely to organising economic matters. It's only been lately that they've got it into their minds that they want to be a nation all of their own, and started pushing for more political power, such as having representatives at various international sumits.

Since then I've assumed that yeah, there would be some bumps in the road for Europe, but that it was pretty much a good thing overall... I thought, hate the US all you want, but uniting the states has given this country so much of its power and stability, it's gotta be a good idea for Europe too. The idea that Europe was doing something similar (at least, it seems similar on the surface) was actually heartening to me, also, because I didn't like the idea that the balance of power was so out of whack. So, to hear that there's actually lots of opposition to the EU-ification of Europe is surprising, and I do admit I'm pretty uninformed.

I can understand your line of thought, but there are very few similarities between the US and the EU.
Even ignoring the massive difficulties in getting the EU to turn into one country, a hypothetical EU nation would be just a few steps down from a total dictatorship. Many positions aren't even elected, and the economies of the more prosperous western-European nations would crash if they became one with the eastern-European nations. There's also the fact that the entire EU is just one big beaurocratic mess of red tape.

There was a thread on this forum last year, I think, that I started asking what would happen if the EU did become one country. The general consensus is that it'd be one gigantic clusterfuck.

I can imagine that it would be more difficult for European countries to unify than American colonies, because Europe has so much more history, and its cultures celebrate their uniqueness. What I'm unclear about is what exactly people are afraid of. Is it the idea of losing sovereignty? Is it the possibility of loss of power? Is it the idea of losing a cultural distinctiveness? I mean, it's probably many things; I'm just trying to get a better sense of how people are feeling about the whole thing

All of the above, and the various ramifications of unification.

The loss of sovereignty is a particularly important point for us Irish. Less than a century ago hundreds, if not thousands, of people died to gain independance for the country. Even then, parts of the country remained with under British control, and even more died in the civil war that followed. So many people have started asking are we just going to say "yeah, thanks Pearse, Griffith, Collins, etc, for sacraficing your own lives to gain us sovereignty, but we've sorta changed our minds and don't really want to be our own country anymore. Thanks anyway."

If the EU were to declare itself one big super-state, I'd fully expect riots and mass protests in virtualy every city. If that doesn't stop the EU, then I give it two decades, at best, before it collapses.