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Mikey wrote:

Captain Seafort wrote:Indeed, the lower muzzle velocity of a PDW might be an advantage - it would stand a chance of dumping more of its energy into the zombie than a 5.56mm round would

You will notice, perhaps, that my choice for assault rifle was one which chambers the 7.62x51.

True, but even 7.62 has issues with overpenetration, which in this case I think we can agree is not some much of an oxymoron as usual. It's certainly better than 5.56, simply by virtue of its mass, but I think there's still an argument that a weapon with low muzzle velocity with a heavy round (such as the MP5/10 or MP5/40) may well be superior.

Long Rifle- An MK-17 or something else chambered for a heavy 7.62 round with a decent optical sight of some sort to give me long range stopping power.

SLR. Solid, reliable, if the target's hit it will stay hit, and if the worse comes to the worst you can whack zombies with it without worrying about breaking the thing.[/quote]

Well the MK-17 is made by the same company that designed the FN-FAL. It has a full auto-feature if I needed it, plus it has shorter barrel lengths that I can make use of more handily from cover in a building. Even the long version of it has a shorter barrel than the older rifle. Plus it is lighter to move around with by a couple pounds. Plus I am sure I can put a good modern sight on the rail which I am not sure I can do with the SLR. Finally it has a slightly lower MV than the FN-FAL and M-14 which helps with the over-penetration aspect of the gun.

But really anything in that category would do. I have no plan to club zombies. I will hit my claymores and run like hell if they get to far inside comfortable shotgun range.

Fair enough.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Mikey wrote:

Captain Seafort wrote:Indeed, the lower muzzle velocity of a PDW might be an advantage - it would stand a chance of dumping more of its energy into the zombie than a 5.56mm round would

You will notice, perhaps, that my choice for assault rifle was one which chambers the 7.62x51.

True, but even 7.62 has issues with overpenetration, which in this case I think we can agree is not some much of an oxymoron as usual. It's certainly better than 5.56, simply by virtue of its mass, but I think there's still an argument that a weapon with low muzzle velocity with a heavy round (such as the MP5/10 or MP5/40) may well be superior.

Fairly said. I am, however, simply talking about a weapon for intermediate ranges to 300m or so - i.e., assault rifle usage - for which SMG's are unsuited.

I think whatever assault rifle you take your main objective would be to have something like M-118LR ammunition or the civilian equal so you can have a hollow-point. I don't think Zombies are protected by treaty after all so you might as well blaze away with hollow point ammunition the whole time.

BigJKU316 wrote:I think whatever assault rifle you take your main objective would be to have something like M-118LR ammunition or the civilian equal so you can have a hollow-point. I don't think Zombies are protected by treaty after all so you might as well blaze away with hollow point ammunition the whole time.

I'd imagine that anyone in this situation would use JHP's, or even fragmenting rounds if he could get them (that is, legality of possession isn't an issue during a zombie apocalypse.) Most of the firearms we've been discussing are modern or modernized enough to not experience an issue with JHP's in a magazine feed. As far as being forbidden by treaty, it doesn't apply - unless the zombies have formed their own sovereign nation and attacked under the flag of war, the Hague Convention wouldn't protect them.

BTW, I'm no expert on firearms by any stretch... I thought the M118LR was a FMJ round?

Mikey wrote:That's almost the exact antithesis of the purpose of the assault rifle. The assault rifle was developed solely and expressly to supplant the battle rifle when it was deemed that warfare had changed to the point at which most exchanges took place at under 300m. Further, most definitions of "assault rifle" include a corollary about using an intermediate round - using a rifle primer, but a smaller powder load than a battle rifle.

Thank you for the lesson. However in terms of dealing with zombies, an assault rifle is one of the distance weapons, along with the scoped/sniper rifle. If you're defending a structure they're both great, but on the run I'd prefer a smaller, more compact weapon. Again, if the zombie is not about to grab me within a few seconds, I'm not risking shooting it and alerting the rest of them.

Mikey wrote:Understood, but the P90 - most PDW's actually - sacrifice stopping power for AP, using small cartridges and small, high-velocity bullets. Now, against living humans the lack of stopping power is mitigated to an extent by the effects of hydrostatic shock caused by supersonic bullets. Causing remote hemmorrhaging in something that's already dead probably isn't going to help that much.

Thank you for repeating this, even though I already said before: Hallow Points. Aimed in bursts at the head. From close range. I think that'll do the job just fine.

Mikey wrote:Umm, OK:
The Heckler & Koch MP5 is available in chamberings for the Fed 10mm or the .40 S&W; the successor H&K UMP is available in chamberings for .45 ACP or .40 S&W; we've already discussed both the Thompson and the Kriss Super-V, which are both .45 ACP SMG's (though admittedly, the Tommy's a bit bigger than the M5, UMP, Kriss, or FN P90) along with the old M3 and M50; and there's a Serbian SMG which uses the 7.62x39.

MP5: A little bigger in weight and length, but hardly enough to make a practical difference. Only holds 60% as many rounds with the standard mag though. Also that mag out front is something a zombie could grab and damage, there's nothing really on a P90 that one could get a hold of and disable to weapon if you rip it loose. Over all I don't see this being a superior choice.
Thompson: Too big and heavy, fine choice for guarding a place, but I'd rather not lug it cross country.
UMP: It is a lighter, smaller gun, which is nice. Still holds far less ammo though, and has the mag where it can be grabbed easily.
Kriss: Interesting looking gun, does solve the exposed mag issue, though ammo is really low without the extended mag. Comparable weight and length.
M3/M50: Kind of old guns there, and nothing that makes me see them in an "older is better" light. Lot of the same I've been saying for the above.

Lighthawk wrote:MP5: A little bigger in weight and length, but hardly enough to make a practical difference. Only holds 60% as many rounds with the standard mag though. Also that mag out front is something a zombie could grab and damage, there's nothing really on a P90 that one could get a hold of and disable to weapon if you rip it loose. Over all I don't see this being a superior choice.

Both the 10mm Auto and .40 S&W are big heavy rounds though - more five times the mass for only halving the muzzle velocity, which means superior KE and momentum. The much lower muzzle velocity also means they're more likely to dump all that momentum/KE into the zombie.

Exactly. You've dissected all those suggestions without addressing the whole reason I suggested them - a better round for zombie-plinking purposes. Also, I know you said "hollow points" before (actually, you said "hallow points," so maybe you just meant blessed ammo ) but that's not an advantage - any of those better rounds could be used with JHP's as well. In fact, the more common usage of the 10mm, .40S&W, and .45 ACP in law enforcement means a much easier availability of JHP or fragmenting rounds in those calibers over the unique round of the FN P90.

I definitely grant you that as far as ergonomics, tracking, likelihood of not getting snagged or grabbed, visibility of ammo remaining, etc., the P90 is a great weapon. However, I think the most important criterion here is "how well will the round put down a bloodthirsty undead beast," and there are a number of guns with similar roles to the P90 that answer this question better.

Mikey wrote:(actually, you said "hallow points," so maybe you just meant blessed ammo )

I doubt that would work, unless you're up against zombie killer rabbits.

I didn't see "Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch" among the poll options.

Im not changing it now cause then everyone would have to revote. Ian, we need to be able to add options without wiping the votes!

The poll wrote:Grenades or other explosives

While it doesn't specify the exact type, I don't see why it would exclude the Holy Antiochian variety.

Good point Seafort. I hadn't noticed and I created the damn thing.

Captain Seafort wrote:

The poll wrote:Grenades or other explosives

While it doesn't specify the exact type, I don't see why it would exclude the Holy Antiochian variety.

I suppose. OTOH, if we consider the subject to be Tim, then no firearms would be necessary.