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GrahamKennedy wrote:
The cannon is nice and all, but these kinds of smart stand off precision weapons are proliferating and getting cheaper all the time. And infantry SAMS are getting better all the time, too.

Cpl Kendall wrote:They are but MANPADS are very, very limited in there effectiveness against jet aircraft. Unless there tied into an air defence network, the users have no effective warning of incoming aircraft and hits hard to hit and incoming jet because of the limited warning time. They work better against helicopters to be honest. Or if you sit near a runway.

GrahamKennedy wrote:But they are getting better over time, aren't they? How good are they likely to be in 10 years, in 30 years?

GrahamKennedy wrote:
But they are getting better over time, aren't they? How good are they likely to be in 10 years, in 30 years?

GrahamKennedy wrote:I wouldn't like to bet my CAS ability on the idea that SAMs aren't getting any better anytime in the next few decades.

WASHINGTON - The Senate voted Tuesday to halt production of the Air Force's missile-eluding F-22 Raptor fighter jets in a high-stakes, veto-laden showdown over President Barack Obama's efforts to shift defense spending to a next generation of smaller, single-engine F-35 Joint Strike Fighters.

The 58-40 vote reflected an all-out lobbying campaign by the Obama administration, which had to overcome resistance from lawmakers confronted with the losses of defense-related jobs if the F-22 program is terminated.

"The president really needed to win this vote," Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin, D-Mich., said. Levin said it was important not only on the merits but "in terms of changing the way we do business in Washington."

The top Republican on the committee, John McCain of Arizona, agreed that it was "a signal that we are not going to continue to build weapons systems with cost overruns which outlive their requirements for defending this nation."

He said the margin of victory was "directly attributable" to Obama, his opponent in the last presidential election, and Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who has pushed for the termination of the F-22 and other weapons systems he says have outlived their usefulness.

The vote removed $1.75 billion set aside in a $680 billion defense policy bill to build seven more F-22 Raptors, adding to the 187 stealth technology fighters already being built.

The Senate action also saved Obama from what could have been a political embarrassment. He had urged the Senate to strip out the money and threatened what would be the first veto of his presidency if the F-22 money remained in the defense bill.

Immediately after the vote, Obama told reporters at the White House the Senate's decision will "better protect our troops."

White House officials said Vice President Joe Biden and chief of staff Rahm Emanuel lobbied senators, as did Gates, who both publicly and in conversations with lawmakers stressed that the Pentagon has enough F-22s for its operational needs and can put the money to better uses.

Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell said Tuesday that spending on the stealth fighter would "inhibit our ability to buy things we do need," including Gates' proposal to add 22,000 soldiers to the Army.

"The Senate has heard from the senior leadership of the Defense Department both civilian and military that we should end F-22 production. The recommendation is strong and clear, as strong and clear as I have ever heard," Levin said.

"I've never seen the White House lobby like they've lobbied on this issue," said Republican Saxby Chambliss of Georgia, an F-22 supporter whose state would be hit hard by a production shutdown.

Supporters of the program cited both the importance of the F-22 to U.S. security interests - pointing out that China and Russia are developing planes that can compete with the F-22 - and the need to protect aerospace jobs in a bad economy.

Gates and other Pentagon officials have determined that production of the F-22, which is designed for combat in a war where the enemy has an air force and has not been used in Iraq and Afghanistan, should be stopped at 187 planes in order to focus on the F-35, a smaller next-generation plane that would also be available to the Navy and Marine Corps.

Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, countered that the F-35 is designed to supplement, not replace, the F-22, "the "NASCAR racer of this air dominance team." Supporters of the F-22 have put the number of F-22s needed at anywhere from 250 to 380.

The defense bill has funds to build 30 F-35s. The plane is currently being produced in small numbers for testing purposes. The single-engine plane will eventually replace the venerable F-16 and the Air force's aging fleet of A-10s. Its primary purposed is to attack targets on the ground.

The twin-engine F-22 Raptor is a jet the Air Force would use for air-to-air combat missions.

According to Lockheed Martin Corp., the main contractor for both planes, 25,000 people are directly employed in building the F-22, and another 70,000 have indirect links, particularly in Georgia, Texas and California.

Levin suggested that some workers might be shifted to F-35 production. "We have to find places for people who are losing their jobs," he said, adding that F-22 production needs to be cut off because "we have to do what's best for our nation."

The House last month approved its version of the defense bill with a $369 million down payment for 12 additional F-22 fighters. The House Appropriations Committee last week endorsed that spending in drawing up its Pentagon budget for next year. It also approved $534 million for an alternate engine for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, another program that Obama, backed by the Pentagon, says is unwarranted and would subject the entire bill to a veto.

The defense bill authorizes $550 billion for defense programs and $130 billion for military operations in Iraq, Afghanistan and other anti-terrorist operations.

Deepcrush wrote:I just don't think you can replace the A-10 in CAS. There simply isn't a better aircraft anywhere in the world for the job. Her weapons give her the ability to engage anything that comes her way and her insane armor and ECM pod protect her from counter attack.