Hypothetical Starfleet ship roles

[Deepcrush]

Just like the two ships previously mentioned, the Vesta and the Luna, which are a continuity versed in Trek canon.
Just because you used "Trek Canon" to build the Paladin, it doesn't make it more canon then two ships who appear in ST novels, as many people pointed out to you.
You don't need to like those ships, but if your list is supposed to be "only canon ships", then the Paladin should not be there.
Heck, I didn't even say that I don't like the Paladin, I only said I thought it was too... Uber.

If Starfleet doesn't have a ship that fits the bill, use Captain Seafort's suggestion.

A.) If you ever spend the time working on a fleet billing, you don't have to use it.
B.) The difference between the Paladin Class and the Vesta and Luna classes is that the former is built from canon, not being canon. The latter two are just ships thrown in without support of any kind.
C.) Like I said, if you don't like the Paladin, just pretend it's a rebuilt GCS.
D.) For seafort's suggestion, again, feel free to ignore a needed rating should you ever run a fleet billing of your own.

[Reliant121]

Deep has only, as far as I am aware, Suggested using the Paladin as a full blown battleship because Starfleet hasn't got one. I believe both the Vesta and Luna are cruisers. We have them. Akira, Nebula, Prometheus. All Cruisers. Sovereign. battlecruiser. GCS is more of S/E ship. So where does that leave us. No battleship. He suggested making an exception for canon circumstances because there is nothing canon to fill the spot. There IS in the case of both the Vesta and Luna.

[Deepcrush]

Deep has only, as far as I am aware, Suggested using the Paladin as a full blown battleship because Starfleet hasn't got one. I believe both the Vesta and Luna are cruisers. We have them. Akira, Nebula, Prometheus. All Cruisers. Sovereign. battlecruiser. GCS is more of S/E ship. So where does that leave us. No battleship. He suggested making an exception for canon circumstances because there is nothing canon to fill the spot. There IS in the case of both the Vesta and Luna.

Correct!

[Nickswitz]

I'm sorry to say this, but Deep, you kinda sound like a five your old with an idea that some one is talking over. Seriously. you can't gripe about something when your doing the same thing (both of you are using non-canon designs for it). You can talk about why things should or shouldn't be in the fleet, but just saying his is BS because it has ships I don't like, that's a really stupid reason to not accept something, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Sorry for sounding mod-like or anything, that was just pissing me off.

[Deepcrush]

I'm sorry to say this, but Deep, you kinda sound like a five your old with an idea that some one is talking over. Seriously. you can't gripe about something when your doing the same thing (both of you are using non-canon designs for it). You can talk about why things should or shouldn't be in the fleet, but just saying his is BS because it has ships I don't like, that's a really stupid reason to not accept something, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong.

A.) The reasons for the Paladin being included has been covered several times and you can take it in two ways. Either a purpose built ship or a fully rebuilt GCS. If you want a canon excuse to help you out then just take the latter.

B.) The "Because I don't like it" has nothing to do with it. The OP that we are working from covers it.

All of this has been covered already, several times. People should try reading then speaking. It might make things a little easier.

Sorry for sounding mod-like or anything, that was just pissing me off.

You'll get over it, or not.

[Lt. Staplic]

regardless of weather or not SF has a battle ship, by including the Paladin we're including non-canon ships making the Luna and Vesta classes open for debate...I'm not commanding you to take them all or leave them all, what I suggest is we decide if we want it to be canon only, and if not and decide to use the Paladin, it should also be open to if we want to use the Luna/Vesta.

and IMO, one could just as easily say : "pretend the vesta/luna is a rebuilt Akira/Intrepid/Sov (whatever is closest in size)" as your saying the Paladin is a rebuilt Galaxy.

[Praeothmin]

A.) If you ever spend the time working on a fleet billing, you don't have to use it.

Good suggestion, I'll do it.

B.) The difference between the Paladin Class and the Vesta and Luna classes is that the former is built from canon, not being canon. The latter two are just ships thrown in without support of any kind.

The Vesta, you're right, it does possess some "new" technology (which does border on the wank side IMO), but the Luna, from what I read in the books, simply has better sensors then the rest of the Fed fleet. So it is also built from canon Trek equipment, using the same kind of shield, Warp Drive, no armor, QTs and Phasers arrays ( no pulse Phasers).
But, still, you're right, it is your list, you may put whatever you wish in it, it's just not a "canon-only" list if you put the Paladin, no matter what the reason for putting it there is.

Remember, I never disputed your right to put the Paladin in, I was wondering why you accepted the Paladin in what was supposed to be a "canon-only" list while you discarded the other two ships for being non-canon (and having what you felt was "non-canon" "Treknology").

C.) Like I said, if you don't like the Paladin, just pretend it's a rebuilt GCS.

Well, if you don't mind, I'll pretend it's a Sovereign "battle-upgrade" instead...

D.) For seafort's suggestion, again, feel free to ignore a needed rating should you ever run a fleet billing of your own.

Well, here's another place we disagree: Starfleet actually already has a Battleship.
According to Wikipedia, a Battleship was:

a large, heavily armored warship with a main battery consisting of the largest calibre of guns. Battleships were larger, better armed, and better armored than cruisers and destroyers.
Battleship design continually evolved to incorporate and adapt technological advances to maintain an edge.

This description when transposed in ST basically refers to the Sovereign-class.
It is the mighiest ship, incorporating the latest weapons and armor, the best missiles, the best Tactical computer.
So if you truly want to have your Battleship, you already have one in Starfleet: the Sovereign.

Anyway, here's my list:
Battleship Role - Sov

Battle Cruiser - Basically same thing as a Battleship (according to Wikipedia. Those of you with naval knowledge, please let me know if it is wrong. Thanks)

Heavy Cruiser - GCS (uprated) Nebula (uprated + new pod) Prometheus (Batch 2, MVAM removed).

Standard Cruiser - Akira and Ambassador, Excelsior if refitted "Lakota-style".

Light Cruiser - Excelsior, Norway and Steamrunner.

Destroyer - Defiant (I don't believe the Monitor appellation is correct, because, according to, you know it, Wikipedia, the Monitor was a "a type of relatively small warship which was neither fast nor strongly armoured but carried disproportionately large guns". The Defiant is fast and very strongly armored).

Frigate/Escort - Saber, Miranda and Centaur.

Cargo - Sydney (U.S.S Jenolan).

S/E - Intrepid and Nova.

[Captain Seafort]

Battle Cruiser - Basically same thing as a Battleship (according to Wikipedia. Those of you with naval knowledge, please let me know if it is wrong. Thanks)

They're very similar, and usually carry the same or similar armament, but battleships tend to emphasise firepower and protection, while battlecruisers emphasise firepower and mobility. The later designs were a much better balance than earlier ones, and too an extent the Iowas, although usually considered battleships, could be considered the ultimate battlecruiser, as they sacrificed protection and firepower (relative to the Montanas) for mobility.

Destroyer - Defiant (I don't believe the Monitor appellation is correct, because, according to, you know it, Wikipedia, the Monitor was a "a type of relatively small warship which was neither fast nor strongly armoured but carried disproportionately large guns". The Defiant is fast and very strongly armored).

The Defiant is certainly strongly armoured, which is the issue with calling it a monitor, but it's strategically pretty slow by Trek standards - anything above warp 9 requires her to sacrifice phaser power for structural integrity, which is (obviously) a very bad idea for a warship.

[Praeothmin]

Ok, thanks for the clarifications.

Concerning the speed though, I guess when classifying a ship, you compare it to ships from it's own group (i.e., Starfleet), right?
Because it seems to me that the Defiant was as fast as, if not faster, then Cardassian or Klingon ships.

[Captain Seafort]

That's the only way to do it. As a rough comparison, the Queen Elizabeth class battleships were considered too slow to be sent up against the main German fleet in WW2, and were relegated to the Med and convoy escort duty. In WW1 they'd been the fast wing of the Grand Fleet.

General fleet discussion split away from "backbone" discussion.

[Deepcrush]

regardless of weather or not SF has a battle ship, by including the Paladin we're including non-canon ships making the Luna and Vesta classes open for debate...I'm not commanding you to take them all or leave them all, what I suggest is we decide if we want it to be canon only, and if not and decide to use the Paladin, it should also be open to if we want to use the Luna/Vesta.

The Paladin is at least started from a cannon ship, being the GCS tonnage. Neither the Luna nor Vesta can make that claim.

and IMO, one could just as easily say : "pretend the vesta/luna is a rebuilt Akira/Intrepid/Sov (whatever is closest in size)" as your saying the Paladin is a rebuilt Galaxy.

Find one that is the equal tonnage of any of those ships (within 5% +/-) and then you can. Although you'd then have to wait for their tech to become canon. Then feel free.

[Deepcrush]

Preaothmin wrote...

The Vesta, you're right, it does possess some "new" technology (which does border on the wank side IMO), but the Luna, from what I read in the books, simply has better sensors then the rest of the Fed fleet. So it is also built from canon Trek equipment, using the same kind of shield, Warp Drive, no armor, QTs and Phasers arrays ( no pulse Phasers).
But, still, you're right, it is your list, you may put whatever you wish in it, it's just not a "canon-only" list if you put the Paladin, no matter what the reason for putting it there is.

Again this has all been covered. To a horrid point. Why you guys are to fucking retarded to fit this is just annoying. Vesta and Luna. Not canon, at all! Paladin, built from a canon ship. So, everything except the name is canon. Hence, why you can have it in a canon list.

Remember, I never disputed your right to put the Paladin in, I was wondering why you accepted the Paladin in what was supposed to be a "canon-only" list while you discarded the other two ships for being non-canon (and having what you felt was "non-canon" "Treknology").

Again, covered but we'll repeat for the slow peoples here. There sure are enough of you guys today. Two ships are NON-CANON where one ship is built from a CANON ship.

Well, if you don't mind, I'll pretend it's a Sovereign "battle-upgrade" instead...

Wrong weight class bud.

You're off by around half.

Well, here's another place we disagree: Starfleet actually already has a Battleship.
According to Wikipedia, a Battleship was:

a large, heavily armored warship with a main battery consisting of the largest calibre of guns. Battleships were larger, better armed, and better armored than cruisers and destroyers.
Battleship design continually evolved to incorporate and adapt technological advances to maintain an edge.

This description when transposed in ST basically refers to the Sovereign-class.
It is the mighiest ship, incorporating the latest weapons and armor, the best missiles, the best Tactical computer.
So if you truly want to have your Battleship, you already have one in Starfleet: the Sovereign.

Always fun to watch someone's attempt at evidence bite them.
A.) The phaser arrays on the GCS are larger then those on the SOV.
B.) The GCS is bigger then the SOV.
C.) If you want a battleship by those standards then its the GCS, not the SOV.

Care to try again.

Anyway, here's my list:
Battleship Role - Sov

Battle Cruiser - Basically same thing as a Battleship (according to Wikipedia. Those of you with naval knowledge, please let me know if it is wrong. Thanks)

Heavy Cruiser - GCS (uprated) Nebula (uprated + new pod) Prometheus (Batch 2, MVAM removed).

Standard Cruiser - Akira and Ambassador, Excelsior if refitted "Lakota-style".

Light Cruiser - Excelsior, Norway and Steamrunner.

Destroyer - Defiant (I don't believe the Monitor appellation is correct, because, according to, you know it, Wikipedia, the Monitor was a "a type of relatively small warship which was neither fast nor strongly armoured but carried disproportionately large guns". The Defiant is fast and very strongly armored).

Frigate/Escort - Saber, Miranda and Centaur.

Cargo - Sydney (U.S.S Jenolan).

S/E - Intrepid and Nova.

You should merge Battleship and Battlecruiser. They aren't the same but you can still have the same ship run the role if you lack anything to fill the slot. That or you should just forget the Battleship role all together.

For Cargo ships you should add the Shelley.

Outside of that your list is pretty good.

[Lt. Staplic]

The Paladin is at least started from a cannon ship, being the GCS tonnage. Neither the Luna nor Vesta can make that claim.

correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see how making it weigh the same as a canon ship, is starting from canon.

[Deepcrush]

The Paladin is at least started from a cannon ship, being the GCS tonnage. Neither the Luna nor Vesta can make that claim.

correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see how making it weigh the same as a canon ship, is starting from canon.

OMFG!

How many times are we going to go around this topic!

[Lt. Staplic]

well here's what you argument sounds like from this end:

it's an all canon list so we can't use the Luna/Vesta, however we can use the Paladin because SF doesn't have a battleship, regardless of the fact that I said it's a canon ship, and because when we designed it we chose a size comperable to that of a GCS it's supirior to the Luna/Vesta, and can be reclassified as a rebuilt GCS, even though it would be easier to delegate Rikers upgraded GCS from the alternate timeline since it is a canon design in one timeline.

your just coming up with excuses to use the Paladin and not the Luna/Vesta b/c you don't like them...you either need to make it an all canon list and exclude the Paladin, or not and include the Luna/Vesta as there are people here that want them included.