US vs Arizona

[Deepcrush]

If that person is already detained or arrested it wouldn't matter. If they call the ID in it will be confirmed and so it wouldn't matter.

[stitch626]

If that person is already detained or arrested it wouldn't matter. If they call the ID in it will be confirmed and so it wouldn't matter.

Or they don't care and hold/deport the person anyway. As in the case of my friend's sister, it didn't matter what she had, ID, school records, adoption certificate. They held her anyway until a state judge ordered her to be released.

[Deepcrush]

Something tells me that there is a good deal more to the story then just the border patrol randomly arresting some girl. But regardless of the details you don't have. If this law is in place then those police would be required to confirm the ID given. Not just dismiss it as, you say, happened to your friend.

[stitch626]

Something tells me that there is a good deal more to the story then just the border patrol randomly arresting some girl. But regardless of the details you don't have. If this law is in place then those police would be required to confirm the ID given. Not just dismiss it as, you say, happened to your friend.

Police skirt around what they are supposed to do all the time. And she wasn't just some girl. She had dark skin. And was entering from Mexico. That is why they initially detained her. As for why they didn't accept ID, SSN, or all they other evidence of her citizenship, I have no idea. I'm not them.

[Mikey]

Stitch - what you describe is a truly heinous incident... but utterly irrelevant. The anecdotal mishandling of law enforcement doesn't speak at all to the applicability of this law. As to illegal immigrants - your opinion of how important a crime it is doesn't change the fact of its illegality. The economic effect boils down to taking advantage of governmental services such as public education, Medicaid, WIC, etc. - without ever paying into the system like you and I do.

[stitch626]

The anecdotal mishandling of law enforcement doesn't speak at all to the applicability of this law.

How not? New law=law enforcement=can be abused just the same as the current ones.

The economic effect boils down to taking advantage of governmental services such as public education, Medicaid, WIC, etc. - without ever paying into the system like you and I do.

Don't you need to provide some sort of evidence of legality to get Medicaid? Never applied so no idea.

To get into school, don't the parents have to prove they are legal residents of the state they are in? If not, should be that way.

Whats WIC?

[Tsukiyumi]

WIC is a food stamp program.

The fact that they do really tough jobs for minimal pay is one of my problems with them; some people can't get anything but those menial labor jobs (factories, warehouses, etc), and the illegals force down the pay rate for Americans who have to work those jobs, as well as taking up many of them.

[stitch626]

The fact that they do really tough jobs for minimal pay is one of my problems with them; some people can't get anything but those menial labor jobs (factories, warehouses, etc), and the illegals force down the pay rate for Americans who have to work those jobs, as well as taking up many of them.

That shouldn't be an issue at all.

If the illegals are taking these jobs, they are under the books (have to be a citizen to pay income tax). It is illegal to get pay workers without filing with the IRS (some exceptions for minor children). Hence the jobs are illegal to begin with, hence they are not taking any legal job from Americans.


As for food stamps (thank you btw): don't they already require your SSN?

[Tsukiyumi]

...Hence the jobs are illegal to begin with, hence they are not taking any legal job from Americans...

If the ICE would do their jobs, and start inspecting more thoroughly, this might be a true statement. As things are, it's bullsh*t.

Half of the employees at my mom's last job were illegals. They were the dishwashers, cooks, busboys, etc. All you need to do is falsify some records, and as long as there's no inspection, it continues. Uzume's new job has a ton of illegals working in the warehouse. It's common for small businesses to hire them for lawn care, day labor, and other jobs that pay in cash. No records, no IRS.

Here we are. This has been a problem for a long time.

[Sonic Glitch]

...Hence the jobs are illegal to begin with, hence they are not taking any legal job from Americans...

If the ICE would do their jobs, and start inspecting more thoroughly, this might be a true statement. As things are, it's bullsh*t.

Half of the employees at my mom's last job were illegals. They were the dishwashers, cooks, busboys, etc. All you need to do is falsify some records, and as long as there's no inspection, it continues. Uzume's new job has a ton of illegals working in the warehouse. It's common for small businesses to hire them for lawn care, day labor, and other jobs that pay in cash. No records, no IRS.

Here we are. This has been a problem for a long time.

Now, (just to play devils advocate here} what would happen to business/prices for the rest of us if those jobs were taken by legal citizens whom the employers would have to pay full minimum wage, or whatever the legally stipulated amount is for those jobs?

[Tsukiyumi]

Oh, I'm sure prices on some products would go up, but the products in my example aren't the type that average people buy. How many cases of screws and fasteners did you buy last year? How many power tools?

Legal workers would have more leverage to negotiate their pay rates if the option of cheap illegal labor wasn't so readily available.

As it is, companies can basically say, "Take what we're offering if you want a job; we could always replace you with an illegal or three."

[Nickswitz]

Um... Just asking, how many people do you know that doesn't use screws or power tools?
Everyone in my area uses power tools and replaces them on a regular basis, and screws, yeah, my dad has just gone through about 4 cases of screws over the last weekend, so yeah, that would affect us a lot, as well as a lot of other people in this area, I don't know anyone who doesn't occasionally do DIY projects here, and my family does DIY a lot, as in everything is DIY, so in my area it would affect a lot of people.

[Mikey]

How not? New law=law enforcement=can be abused just the same as the current ones.

Let's break this down. "How not?" - simple. Your anecdote is about poor judgement by a group of enforcement officials, which is completely independent of the law itself. Our discussion here is about the law, not about whether any individuals will mishandle it. You say yourself that this law "can be abused just the same as the current ones." By your logic, then, we shouldn't have any laws at all, because any law enforcement may be mismanaged by individual enforcement officers. This is patently ridiculous. Cops botch traffic stops all the time, but I don't think we should abolish all traffic laws; you, however, would argue that we should.

Don't you need to provide some sort of evidence of legality to get Medicaid? Never applied so no idea.

Perhaps it's not called Medicaid or under the same aegis; but a sick kid who is an illegal alien, or an illegal immigrant who cuts of a finger doing under-the-table field work, will be treated at an ER... on my dime. I didn't even mention the fact that many illegal immigrants cost more per capita for this kind of thing, because they often have worse baseline health stats because of the hellholes from which they come; and because of the fact that there are more instances of overcrowding in housing not meant for high levels of habitation, it's been proven that there are much higher instances of asthma and other chronic repsiratory issues among illegals.

To get into school, don't the parents have to prove they are legal residents of the state they are in? If not, should be that way.

Yeah, it should. My son's dirty diapers should smell like a field of petunias, and I should have a DB9 Volante in my driveway. In our world, though, if a kid can prove his residence - with nothing more than a cell phone or utility bill, or even a claim of relation to the addressee thereon - he can't be turned away from public education, and is subsequently entitled to all the services provided therein.

That shouldn't be an issue at all.

If the illegals are taking these jobs, they are under the books (have to be a citizen to pay income tax). It is illegal to get pay workers without filing with the IRS (some exceptions for minor children).

Did you just turn one year old? Of course the jobs which illegal immigrants take are illegal. How else can you hire someone who's not here legally? The point is that illegal immigrants provide unfair competition for jobs. Let's say Ed's Landscaping wants to put on three guys. Which is cheaper:
a) hire three guys legitimately; for whom you have to file, pay a legal minimum wage, offer things like FMLA; conform to OHSA requirements, etc.; or,
b)hire three illegal immigrants for whom you have to provide none of these things, nor even insure for worker's comp, nor have to pay a competitive rate.

So, this:

Hence the jobs are illegal to begin with, hence they are not taking any legal job from Americans.

Is (sorry to say) completely moronic. The illegal jobs replace the legal ones.

Now, (just to play devils advocate here} what would happen to business/prices for the rest of us if those jobs were taken by legal citizens whom the employers would have to pay full minimum wage, or whatever the legally stipulated amount is for those jobs?

Good observation, but not as much as you might think. You might see it in some labor-intensive service industries in which employment of illegals is rife; but in general, the employers in these situations already follow the pricing custom of the market and just pocket any savings they garner from illegal labor.

Um... Just asking, how many people do you know that doesn't use screws or power tools?
Everyone in my area uses power tools and replaces them on a regular basis, and screws, yeah, my dad has just gone through about 4 cases of screws over the last weekend, so yeah, that would affect us a lot, as well as a lot of other people in this area, I don't know anyone who doesn't occasionally do DIY projects here, and my family does DIY a lot, as in everything is DIY, so in my area it would affect a lot of people.

Nick, really? Tsu was just making an example that these things don't affect staples as such and so would have less of a personal repercussion in the market.

[Nickswitz]

Nick, really? Tsu was just making an example that these things don't affect staples as such and so would have less of a personal repercussion in the market.

So then because it isn't something essential means it's not going to affect a lot of people?

He said

but the products in my example aren't the type that average people buy. How many cases of screws and fasteners did you buy last year? How many power tools?

Thus saying that average people don't buy those sorts of things, and I think that the majority of the people within the town I live in are average people, and the majority of them have bought a lot of screws, power tools, etc.

So therefore it would affect a lot of people in general, not just large businesses, or the such.

[BigJKU316]

There was a reason I put "". They have only been deemed illegal, doesn't mean they actually are.


For an actual RL example: my best friend's sister went to Mexico..... snip.....

Get a freaking passport and this is a non-issue. In fact I believe the US started making people have a passport for going to Mexico a few years ago. Frankly anyone traveling internationally without a passport is a grade A moron and deserves any trouble they get into. It will handle all issues and leaves no questions at all up in the air to be resolved. I don't feel bad for this person at all. And yes, I am aware that supervised groups of children can generally re-enter without a passport but it is still a stupid idea to mess with it. Spend the $100 or so dollars and make sure you can come and go as you please. Otherwise don't whine when you produce documents I could fake for $15 in any border town and try to cross the border.

In this case a detainment might as well be an arrest, charge, and trial all at once. As happens often with "illegals" they don't get even so much as a hearing before they get deported.
And if an individual is for some reason unable to provide documentation (for example, mentally challenged and doesn't understand the concept of ID) they will be either deported, or at the least imprisoned until the matter is sorted out.

I think this is actually 100% wrong. You do in fact get a deportation hearing in which a judge or some such authority makes a simple determination of facts (being that you are not here legally). There is not a full trial because it is not necessary to a determination of fact in these cases.