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Well I suppose we can't know for sure until they release them. Absent of that if Turkey said no harm was done I would be okay with that. I know one side of the argument is worried about releasing unedited footage to the masses, but not worried about releasing an edited snap shot to the masses. I guess we'll wait and see and if nothing happens this event will be just like when Israel attacked the Liberty.

Monroe wrote:I guess we'll wait and see and if nothing happens this event will be just like when Israel attacked the Liberty.

Hmm, nice attempt to bring in an unrelated (and non-analogous, BTW) incident into the conversation to try and tangentially discredit Israel. Forget the Israeli inquiry into the Liberty incident, if you want to allege bias (with no evidence.) The U. S. inquiry revealed nothing more sinister than a substantiation of Israel's claim of misindentification of an unknown class in extraterritorial, contested waters during wartime.

Mikey wrote:

Monroe wrote:I guess we'll wait and see and if nothing happens this event will be just like when Israel attacked the Liberty.

Hmm, nice attempt to bring in an unrelated (and non-analogous, BTW) incident into the conversation to try and tangentially discredit Israel. Forget the Israeli inquiry into the Liberty incident, if you want to allege bias (with no evidence.) The U. S. inquiry revealed nothing more sinister than a substantiation of Israel's claim of misindentification of an unknown class in extraterritorial, contested waters during wartime.

Its an event that many people felt wasn't finished. Its related. The Congress never investigated it which made a lot of people upset. I don't need to discredit Israel, they do that enough on their own. Point is, until they release the footage we can't know for sure. Though usually the side that tampers with the evidence isn't the honest side I guess we'll have to wait and see.

We can't really move further with this debate anyway. I like things like evidence and facts. You think we should take Israel's word on it. Only the release of all the footage and / or Turkey's agreement that Israel is in the right will make me satisfied. You're satisfied with Israel's claim that they opened fire only after buttons and marbles were thrown at them.

I'm pretty sure the footage we do have is of the peaceful protesters mobbing the Israelis and some of them have clubs soooo I'm not really sure I know what further footage is going to tell us, unless you seem to think the big bad Israelis are actually stupid enough to video themselves executing people and doing it out in public.

Monroe wrote:You're satisfied with Israel's claim that they opened fire only after buttons and marbles were thrown at them.

I never said that. I said that common sense and logic would support the idea that the Israelis didn't board the ship and randomly start shooting live lethal ammo into a crowd without having first been attacked. And it wasn't buttons and marbles - it may not have been a firearm, but opening a man's skull with a tireknocker is just as lethal as shooting him. As Tyyr just said, what do you expect to see on the video, if you had the full undoctored version in front of you? Do you really expect to see the Israeli troops shooting lethal ammo without having been attacked first? If that was what the video shows, then (as I already said) would happily condemn the Israelis involved as murderers, cowards, and international criminals. But I'm willing to bet that it's not what the video shows.

Tyyr wrote:I'm pretty sure the footage we do have is of the peaceful protesters mobbing the Israelis and some of them have clubs soooo I'm not really sure I know what further footage is going to tell us, unless you seem to think the big bad Israelis are actually stupid enough to video themselves executing people and doing it out in public.

It will tell us if the people on the boat attacked out of self defense or were the aggressors. I know if Israelis landed on my boat and began executing people seemingly at random I would fight back.

Mikey wrote: I never said that. I said that common sense and logic would support the idea that the Israelis didn't board the ship and randomly start shooting live lethal ammo into a crowd without having first been attacked. And it wasn't buttons and marbles - it may not have been a firearm, but opening a man's skull with a tireknocker is just as lethal as shooting him. As Tyyr just said, what do you expect to see on the video, if you had the full undoctored version in front of you? Do you really expect to see the Israeli troops shooting lethal ammo without having been attacked first? If that was what the video shows, then (as I already said) would happily condemn the Israelis involved as murderers, cowards, and international criminals. But I'm willing to bet that it's not what the video shows.

See part of the problem is if they opened fire on the boat and say a paintball hit a man next to one of the attackers. In the darkness and in the confusion the attacker would look to see the man stumble and fall after being hit. Maybe the paint was dark color and in the night looked like blood. Then the attacker would assume everyone was going to be shot and attack with whatever they found. Clubs, marbles, buttons, maybe a knife or two. We don't know if this happened or not because the whole footage wasn't released.

Is it wrong of me that I just want these countries to go to war already and get it out of their systems?

Deepcrush wrote:Is it wrong of me that I just want these countries to go to war already and get it out of their systems?

They've already done so. Several times.

I mean a real war, not this panzy crap.

Monroe wrote:It will tell us if the people on the boat attacked out of self defense or were the aggressors. I know if Israelis landed on my boat and began executing people seemingly at random I would fight back.

Please tell me you're not really that stupid.

Deepcrush wrote:I mean a real war, not this panzy crap.

I'm talking about real wars - 1967 and 1973. The Israelis kicked the shit out of the rest of the middle east on both occasions.

Oh, he really is.

If it matters I believe in all accounts Israeli forces opened up with gas and smoke launchers prior to boarding the various boats. Some accounts have the Israelis using rubber bullets against those on the other ships, possibly from the choppers.

Note that rubber bullets are occasionally lethal at short range, so while the commandos on deck couldn't really use them in a non lethal manner (hence the paint) those in the choppers could have used them to attempt to pacify the deck and it wouldn't be odd for them to have done so.

Warning shots would also not be out of place.

@Monroe it is also common for US police to fire warning shots. I do suggest if you hear some do not respond by rushing an officer with a metal pipe.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Deepcrush wrote:I mean a real war, not this panzy crap.

I'm talking about real wars - 1967 and 1973. The Israelis kicked the s**t out of the rest of the middle east on both occasions.

Um, North Korea and Cuba in '73 as well... they both added expeditionary forces to the Arab contingent.