Most hated episode of all time.

[Deepcrush]

Based on the assumption, for which no evidence was sought or provided, that the Maquis had a way off the planet.

You mean other then when Defiant was monitoring the ground and space traffic and how Sisko gave them enough warning time to get off the planet which is a sound show that he fully expected them to be able to escape...

No, seems pretty clear they were fully able to leave. They just didn't believe Sisko would do it.

The fact that the Maquis were attempting genocide against the Cardassian settlements does not excuse Sisko using the exact same tactic against them.

Oh of course not. There's never a reason to use violence against someone who's trying to commit genocide against an entire planet. Just stand there and yell pretty please alot...

But really with all joking aside. What reason is there not to do what Sisko did?

[Captain Seafort]

You mean other then when Defiant was monitoring the ground and space traffic and how Sisko gave them enough warning time to get off the planet which is a sound show that he fully expected them to be able to escape...

The last report before Sisko fired was that there was no activity. This conveniently turned out to be because they were sitting tight in their ships, but what if there were no ships? What if they weren't loaded? I agree that they didn't believe Sisko would attack, but that doesn't change the effect the weapons would have had had they not been able to evacuate the instant the weapons were launched.

Oh of course not. There's never a reason to use violence against someone who's trying to commit genocide against an entire planet. Just stand there and yell pretty please alot...

Oh look, a strawman and a black/white fallacy rolled into one. I never said anything about not using violence - I said that copying Eddington's genocidal tactics was inexcusable.

But really with all joking aside. What reason is there not to do what Sisko did?

Because the vast majority of those on the planet were not Maquis. They were sympathisers and relatives, but the majority would not have been involved in attacks on either Cardassian or Federation assets. Sisko's attack was no more justifiable than the British military would have been if we'd plastered the Falls Road with chemical weapons - it was a known terrorist stronghold, and most of the population probably supported the IRA to some degree, but neither were most of them directly involved in terrorism.

[Deepcrush]

The last report before Sisko fired was that there was no activity. This conveniently turned out to be because they were sitting tight in their ships, but what if there were no ships? What if they weren't loaded? I agree that they didn't believe Sisko would attack, but that doesn't change the effect the weapons would have had had they not been able to evacuate the instant the weapons were launched.

Since Sisko was waiting for them to pack up and leave, common sense says that they must have had a way to do so. And seeing how they were in fact able to do so means that the only threat would have been of their own doing and not of Sisko's.

Oh look, a strawman and a black/white fallacy rolled into one. I never said anything about not using violence - I said that copying Eddington's genocidal tactics was inexcusable.

Yes, go ahead and cry but its okay because I was just waiting for it to start. I like how you put down something that someone said but fail to put any reason what-so-ever into it.

First part of this is black and white but not even close to a fallacy. Holding this aside for now. So you don't like that Sisko used an action that "could" have killed off a single colony. Of course this would have only happened if the colonists stayed and died by choice. Of course the reason behind this is that this single action stopped the Maquis' drive to commit the very genocide that everyone seems to like getting upset about.

Because the vast majority of those on the planet were not Maquis. They were sympathisers and relatives, but the majority would not have been involved in attacks on either Cardassian or Federation assets. Sisko's attack was no more justifiable than the British military would have been if we'd plastered the Falls Road with chemical weapons - it was a known terrorist stronghold, and most of the population probably supported the IRA to some degree, but neither were most of them directly involved in terrorism.

Cute, other then the IRA wasn't interested in genocide. Nor was the whole of the Irish population supporting open war against England. Of course if we want to look at groups who do commit or try to commit genocide, like NAZI Germany, guess you'd like to complain about bombings that "might" have caused deaths in the civilians.

[Sionnach Glic]

I think a better analogy would be if we should have turned all of the Third Reich into a nuclear wasteland near the end of WW2 in response to Germany's attempts at genocide against the Jews, Slavs, etc.

[Captain Seafort]

Since Sisko was waiting for them to pack up and leave

Prove it. Sisko gave them an hour to get out, then launched his attack. He made no effort whatsoever to ensure that they could evacuate.

First part of this is black and white but not even close to a fallacy.

It is indeed a fallacy. You presented two options - chemical warfare or no violence. I pointed out that this is bullshit.

So you don't like that Sisko used an action that "could" have killed off a single colony. Of course this would have only happened if the colonists stayed and died by choice.

Or if they were incapable of evacuating.

Cute, other then the IRA wasn't interested in genocide. Nor was the whole of the Irish population supporting open war against England. Of course if we want to look at groups who do commit or try to commit genocide, like NAZI Germany, guess you'd like to complain about bombings that "might" have caused deaths in the civilians.

Fair enough. I'll therefore modify the hypothetical scenario to the one Rochey proposed - carpet-nuking Germany in retaliation for the Holocaust (or, alternatively, carpeting Baghdad with chemical munitions after Halabja).

[Deepcrush]

I think a better analogy would be if we should have turned all of the Third Reich into a nuclear wasteland near the end of WW2 in response to Germany's attempts at genocide against the Jews, Slavs, etc.

Sorry, must have missed the ep where Sisko nuked a planet filled with Maquis. Though since we did end up dropping two A-bombs during that little war...

...and while we didn't nuke Germany, it was still a wasteland. Seeing that there wasn't a single major city left standing at the end of the war.

Prove it. Sisko gave them an hour to get out, then launched his attack. He made no effort whatsoever to ensure that they could evacuate.

You want me to prove something that you admitted in your own statement? Which part... the advanced warning on a planet he had Worf pick out and even monitored on the way there? That kind of effort, aka intel, aka info on if they were packing up.

It is indeed a fallacy. You presented two options - chemical warfare or no violence. I pointed out that this is bullshit.

First off you weren't pointing anything out other then your love of crying. Second, two options doesn't make a fallacy, it makes... two options... One option is to halt genocide, the other is not to halt genocide. Take your pick.

Or if they were incapable of evacuating.

Yes, Sisko was waiting for them to evacuate even though they couldn't. He picked a target, gave them warning and all the while in transit with Worf and Kira watching the Maquis world to see if they were leaving and no one pointed out that "they can't leave". A slight bit of a detail that would have come up.

Fair enough. I'll therefore modify the hypothetical scenario to the one Rochey proposed - carpet-nuking Germany in retaliation for the Holocaust (or, alternatively, carpeting Baghdad with chemical munitions after Halabja).

Still meaningless. A, no nukes ready at the time of Germany's surrender or before. B, we did carpet bomb them, every single major city and industrial sector of the country. So much so that we were bombing rubble for the last few months. Another problem is that Sisko didn't bomb the Maquis to cause a death toll. It was to force the Maquis to relocate as a retalliation for the Maquis doing the same to the Cardassians.

So, in the end I've heard a lot of crying and bleeding hearts over this subject. Not a single reason has come up why Sisko was infact wrong for what he did. Or at least a better way in which he could have reached the same ends. He took a situation that could have ended in mass murder between two factions and turned it around into an almost bloodless stalemate.

[Captain Seafort]

You want me to prove something that you admitted in your own statement? Which part... the advanced warning on a planet he had Worf pick out and even monitored on the way there? That kind of effort, aka intel, aka info on if they were packing up.

And they weren't. Verbatim:

KIRA
One minute left.
(off her console)
And still no transport ship
activity or any other sign that
they're getting ready to evacuate.

Sisko fired neither knowing nor caring whether the Maquis were ready or able to evacuate.

two options doesn't make a fallacy, it makes... two options... One option is to halt genocide, the other is not to halt genocide.

I didn't think you were this stupid. The requirement to halt the genocide does not equate to a requirement to commit genocide in order to do so.

Yes, Sisko was waiting for them to evacuate even though they couldn't. He picked a target, gave them warning and all the while in transit with Worf and Kira watching the Maquis world to see if they were leaving and no one pointed out that "they can't leave". A slight bit of a detail that would have come up.

It did come up - there was so sign of any evacuation or plans to evacuate when the weapons were fired. Ergo, as far as Sisko knew, he was killing every man woman and child on that planet.

Still meaningless. A, no nukes ready at the time of Germany's surrender or before.

Hence the term "hypothetical situation" stupid.

B, we did carpet bomb them, every single major city and industrial sector of the country. So much so that we were bombing rubble for the last few months.

So what? We did not take a course guaranteed to kill every last German. Sisko's course was guaranteed to kill every human on the planet.

Another problem is that Sisko didn't bomb the Maquis to cause a death toll. It was to force the Maquis to relocate as a retalliation for the Maquis doing the same to the Cardassians.

Irrelevent.

[Deepcrush]

And they weren't. Verbatim:

KIRA
One minute left.
(off her console)
And still no transport ship
activity or any other sign that
they're getting ready to evacuate.

Sisko fired neither knowing nor caring whether the Maquis were ready or able to evacuate.

Okay, so they are watching ships and stating that they aren't moving... how does that say "they have no ships" or that "Sisko doesn't care" if he was the one asking about it?

I didn't think you were this stupid. The requirement to halt the genocide does not equate to a requirement to commit genocide in order to do so.

Nice, insult me but don't bother to cover anything. Sisko didn't commit genocide, he prevented it.

If you have a better plan, then lets hear it.

It did come up - there was so sign of any evacuation or plans to evacuate when the weapons were fired. Ergo, as far as Sisko knew, he was killing every man woman and child on that planet.

Err, wrong, thats just what you'd like to pretend that it means. It means that Sisko used a weapon that he knew would force people to leave or that sometime in the future would be lethal to them.

Hence the term "hypothetical situation" stupid.

NO YOU'RE DA STUPID!

You're hypothetical situation doesn't apply. You can't declare one action (that would instantly kill off the planet of a population) to another action (that would slowly kill of the population of a planet but only if they stayed there dispite advanced warning and the ability to escape or to replicate a bio-suit) and try to treat them as the same. Or at least not declare such and expect to be treated as anything more then a living joke.

So what? We did not take a course guaranteed to kill every last German. Sisko's course was guaranteed to kill every human on the planet.

But you're "hypothetical situation" was to carpet bomb Germany with nukes, which would have killed every single German. Of course the difference is that Sisko didn't carpet bomb anyone but force a peace using a method that while COULD kill everyone also had the ability to AVOID even a single loss of life. Lets see you pull that off with a shit-ton of nukes...

Irrelevent.

Not at all, in fact its the very point of the matter. Or is it so because you don't have anything to counter the points and so its best for you just to stomp your feet and whine...

Its nice to have things back to normal. Its been so long since I had the chance to piss on a mod here, to be honest I really missed it...

[Sionnach Glic]

Sorry, must have missed the ep where Sisko nuked a planet filled with Maquis. Though since we did end up dropping two A-bombs during that little war...

...and while we didn't nuke Germany, it was still a wasteland. Seeing that there wasn't a single major city left standing at the end of the war.

While I agree with what you're saying, my point was more that we didn't deliberately go out of our way to kill any Germans we came across.

In any case, I'm somewhat on the fence about this whole incident. I can see why Sisko did what he did, but I'm sure there must have been some level of response between letting the Maquis go free and killing them all off. Though I'll admit it's been quite a while since I've seen that one.

[Deepcrush]

While I agree with what you're saying, my point was more that we didn't deliberately go out of our way to kill any Germans we came across.

To my knowledge, our goal was to destroy Germany's ability to sustain itself. Thus forcing it out of the war. The problem is that Sisko wasn't setting up the Maquis to starve. He was just working against their ability to mount NBC warfare.

In any case, I'm somewhat on the fence about this whole incident. I can see why Sisko did what he did, but I'm sure there must have been some level of response between letting the Maquis go free and killing them all off. Though I'll admit it's been quite a while since I've seen that one.

The problem is that with everything that people have against Sisko's actions. No one has ever come up with an action to replace it. Sisko solved the issue with zero blood loss and captured the leader of the Maquis and took away their ability to commit NBC warfare. Again, I can't think of a single way that he could have done any of that, let alone all of it without bloodloss.

[Captain Seafort]

Okay, so they are watching ships and stating that they aren't moving

Wrong - Kira said there was no activity. Not that their ships weren't moving. There was no evidence they even knew the ships were there until they started lifting off after the attack.

If you have a better plan, then lets hear it.

a) Flood the DMZ with starships and search every ship you encounter. All those discovered to be carrying weapons or bio-weapon precursor materials should be impounded and their crews arrested.

b) Intelligence-led operations to find the Maquis bases, followed by surface assaults to arrest those present.

It means that Sisko used a weapon that he knew would force people to leave or that sometime in the future would be lethal to them.

It would have been lethal there and then if they hadn't managed to evacuate.

You can't declare one action (that would instantly kill off the planet of a population) to another action (that would slowly kill of the population of a planet but only if they stayed there dispite advanced warning and the ability to escape or to replicate a bio-suit) and try to treat them as the same.

You obviously haven't watched the episode. The attack Sisko launched had exactly the same effect as that the Maquis launched - it immediately rendered the planet uninhabitable and forced an evacuation.

But you're "hypothetical situation" was to carpet bomb Germany with nukes, which would have killed every single German. Of course the difference is that Sisko didn't carpet bomb anyone but force a peace using a method that while COULD kill everyone also had the ability to AVOID even a single loss of life. Lets see you pull that off with a s**t-ton of nukes...

The Germans could have survived an all-out nuclear bombardment as well - they could have evacuated the country before the nukes detonated.

Not at all, in fact its the very point of the matter.

No, it isn't. The point of the matter is that Sisko launched a large-scale chemical attack on an inhabited planet with a mostly-civilian population. His actions were no different from Saddam Hussain's attack on Halabja.

[Deepcrush]

Wrong - Kira said there was no activity. Not that their ships weren't moving. There was no evidence they even knew the ships were there until they started lifting off after the attack.

Minus the ship sensors, minus that Kira and Worf never said "they have no ships", minus that it was a farming port in space so ships are a bit helpful, minus THEY HAD SHIPS. Do you have any reason to show that they didn't have ships?

a) Flood the DMZ with starships and search every ship you encounter. All those discovered to be carrying weapons or bio-weapon precursor materials should be impounded and their crews arrested.

Yes, a fleet of warships in a DMZ where the CU is already looking for an excuse attack Maquis colonies. Then search hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of ships for bio-weapons small enough to be carried on a shuttle. I'm sure you could do this in less then an hour...

b) Intelligence-led operations to find the Maquis bases, followed by surface assaults to arrest those present.

Because that wouldn't take weeks or months while the Maquis bomb a planet or two a day. Because that would be entirely bloodless like Sisko's actions. Because that would in a few months, rather then in an hour, get back the surplus of bio-weapons so long as the Maquis haven't used them all up.

It would have been lethal there and then if they hadn't managed to evacuate.

Couldn't have been "Then and there" as in instant because well... no one died. They had enough time to evacuate in a manner that Sisko reported on as being trouble free.

You obviously haven't watched the episode.

Oh of course I haven't, in fact I've never even heard of it and who the hell is this Sisko gal?

The attack Sisko launched had exactly the same effect as that the Maquis launched - it immediately rendered the planet uninhabitable and forced an evacuation.

Same effect yes, immediately no. Again the term bloodless comes up so exactly how immediate could it have been.

The Germans could have survived an all-out nuclear bombardment as well - they could have evacuated the country before the nukes detonated.

Yes, because in the 30 seconds it takes for the nuke to drop from the plane and then go BOOM... you could evacuate sixty million people without a single death!

No, it isn't. The point of the matter is that Sisko launched a large-scale chemical attack on an inhabited planet with a mostly-civilian population. His actions were no different from Saddam Hussain's attack on Halabja.

So Saddam's attacks were bloodless and enforced a peace treaty which saved thousands or millions of lives to stop Halabja from using bio-weapons on Ireland? If thats all true then yes its "no different" then Saddam Hussain.

-----------------------------------

Half-assed insults, meaningless comparisons and silly little put offs... Really seafort, you're enough of a joke as it is but thanks for adding to it!

[thelordharry]

[Mikey]

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Harry, you deserve a commendation simply for that.