4Chan prevents potential shooting

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Tsukiyumi
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Re: 4Chan prevents potential shooting

Post by Tsukiyumi »

Mikey wrote:OK, the name of the bill is in the article but the editor omits the Congressional Record minutes reference number. Now what?
As long as there's a point of reference that can be corroborated through outside sources, it's enough. Damn sight better than nothing.
Mikey wrote:Better, you still dont' know who Deep Throat was - Watergate was a hoax, then?
As I recall, the incident didn't end with the article. Rather, it began an investigation to... gather facts.

Nixon didn't resign because an article was printed. If there had been no further investigation, I wouldn't believe the article.

Also, the main issue, as I've stated repeatedly, is the double standard. Stitch should come up with something to refute the article, but based on the "rules", he doesn't have to.
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Re: 4Chan prevents potential shooting

Post by Mikey »

So you're saying that if a reputable newspaper printed an article that said that the House is to deliberate on a new bill regarding pork-belly riders - without detailing the consituency from which the bill originated - you would assume that the newspaper is lying? Interesting, but I don't get how you can go through life without accepting any information... nor does that explain how you go ahead and link articles that don't meet your standard.

Again, the overarching issue isn't one of Seafort ignoring his own criterion - it's one of you deciding (as is your right, don't get me wrong) that you will arbitrarily refuse to accept the source he provided.
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Re: 4Chan prevents potential shooting

Post by Tsukiyumi »

Way to cloud the issue.

I'd accept the article just fine, if it actually had any information beyond, "It started here".
Mikey wrote:Again, the overarching issue isn't one of Seafort ignoring his own criterion...
It is, in fact.

I don't care about the article, or the debate, only the double standard.

Seafort has said on numerous occasions that you don't have to prove a negative assertion. Even when the other party has provided evidence.
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Re: 4Chan prevents potential shooting

Post by Mikey »

You obviously care about the article. You started off this facet of the discussion by saying that Seafort shouldn't be asking for proof for a negative assertion (not true, we'll get to that later) and by saying that his citation was invalid of being used as a citation due to its nature as a newspaper article. Well, you can refuse to accept anything you like; but to refuse to accept what's been given, then saying that nothing was given, doesn't fly.

As to the "negative assertion" bit - that's not what happened. There are a number of positive assertions made on the side of this argument opposing Seafort which must be proven - ex.: The Guardian is untruthful; Seafort's original claim of Anonymous originating on 4chan is untruthful; etc. Saying someone is either wrong or lying is most definitely a positive assertion, and therefore must needs evidence.

Finally, how exactly am I clouding the issue? You claim that newspaper articles cannot be taken as evidence, or even as truth. I'm merely trying to determine the composition of your criterion/criteria for determining which articles can be believed, because you obviously do believe some of them.
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Re: 4Chan prevents potential shooting

Post by stitch626 »

The reason I am not considering the article as a source of evidence because of the way they stated their "fact". They did so as if that tidbit was common knowledge, which it isn't. Not even among the 4Chan community (at least the ones I know who I can ask).


Its also the illogicality of the statement. Only a few members posted their support (and possible active involvement) with Anonymous. That would be like one person here doing the same, and them saying that DITL was the source for Anonymous (using one person based on the relative number of members... should actually be even less than that).


Unless there is practical evidence other than a throw away line in an article (no matter how reputable the source is), I will not take it as fact.
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Re: 4Chan prevents potential shooting

Post by Captain Seafort »

stitch626 wrote:Its also the illogicality of the statement. Only a few members posted their support (and possible active involvement) with Anonymous. That would be like one person here doing the same, and them saying that DITL was the source for Anonymous (using one person based on the relative number of members... should actually be even less than that).
You're getting two completely separate pieces of evidence conflated - the example of A individuals posting on 4chan was from the Independent, not the Guardian.
The reason I am not considering the article as a source of evidence because of the way they stated their "fact". They did so as if that tidbit was common knowledge, which it isn't. Not even among the 4Chan community (at least the ones I know who I can ask).
You know, on re-reading the article today, my opinion of stitch and Tsu's reading comprehension has plummeted still further:
The full paragraph in question wrote:Anonymous was born out of the influential internet messageboard 4chan, a forum popular with hackers and gamers, in 2003. The group's name is a tribute to 4chan's early days, when any posting to its forums where no name was given was ascribed to "Anonymous". But the ephemeral group, which picks up causes "whenever it feels like it", has now "gone beyond 4Chan into something bigger", its spokesman said.
All emphasis mine.

Right from the horse's mouth. There's your bloody source - an A "spokesman".

How I managed to miss the wood for the trees over the last four pages I don't know. Of course, it doesn't change the matter of what constitutes an acceptable source one iota, but it does handily put this matter to rest.
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Re: 4Chan prevents potential shooting

Post by Mikey »

Well, you can't get any more verified than right from the subject himself.

In any event...
stitch626 wrote:Its also the illogicality of the statement. Only a few members posted their support (and possible active involvement) with Anonymous. That would be like one person here doing the same, and them saying that DITL was the source for Anonymous (using one person based on the relative number of members... should actually be even less than that).
That statement is only illogical if you completely ignore what it says, either intentionally or out of ignorance. "Source" means the point of origin; saying that 4chan was the source of Anonymous is in no way correlated with saying that most or all of 4chan users are part of Anonymous. As it turns out, from Seafort's emphasized quote above, saying that 4chan was the source of Anonymous is bot logical and completely accurate.

As I said to Tsu - you can choose to ignore any source you want which disagrees with your preconception, but that doesn't change the validity of the source.
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Re: 4Chan prevents potential shooting

Post by stitch626 »

I would like to apologize Seafort. I failed to focus when reading the article well, and compounded my mistake by not rereading it at some point during our back and forth. I'm sorry.
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Re: 4Chan prevents potential shooting

Post by Captain Seafort »

No worries - with a few very rare exceptions, I take the view that what's said in a thread stays in that thread.
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