How Would You Have Dealt With The Gaza Blockade-Runners?

[Monroe]

Ok, so Israel releases the tapes it has, none of which show somebody being executed.

Actually the killings would show on tape. Hell the guy who was shot through the head holding the camera would show something.

The only way to disprove those claims is if there was a camera right on the person getting shot that showed exactly how they got shot. And the only way to prove no Israeli shot first is if there were, well you'd pretty much have to have cameras on all the commandos and choppersat all times in the lead up.

Which they pretty much have. From what they have released we know that the Israelis had cameras pointing on the deck where the brawl happened from air and sea. We also know two independent films were pointed their way (The dead dude and news crew). We also know that the scene happened in front of a security camera.

We'd know if someone was shot say laying down as opposed to standing with a weapon raised. We'd know if an activist shot a weapon or just threw it over board since there's a difference in eyewitness. We might be able to see who shot first. What do judges do when two eyewitness accounts say two different things and there's tape available? They ask for the tape available. By releasing all the tape its the only way to know what really happened to the best of our ability instead of just taking Israeli's word on it.

Unless you've got what's required for that, and that isn't likely, than all you're doing is handing out propaganda.

Its only propaganda if the Israelis shot unarmed people laying on their stomachs.

[Mikey]

Its only propaganda if the Israelis shot unarmed people laying on their stomachs.

Not true. Like I said, these "activists" went in with the specific intent of creating a publicity stunt. Do you think they'd have filmed one of the passengers shooting first? In addition, the Israeli tapes show very little visually - rather, one can hear the Israel com chatter reporting the shots fired against their own. (If you answer this by saying that the Israeli com chatter could have been faked, then there's no point in discussion any further because just making things up doesn't make for a conversation.)

[Monroe]

Its only propaganda if the Israelis shot unarmed people laying on their stomachs.

Not true. Like I said, these "activists" went in with the specific intent of creating a publicity stunt. Do you think they'd have filmed one of the passengers shooting first? In addition, the Israeli tapes show very little visually - rather, one can hear the Israel com chatter reporting the shots fired against their own. (If you answer this by saying that the Israeli com chatter could have been faked, then there's no point in discussion any further because just making things up doesn't make for a conversation.)

Actually I was going to answer in the confusion of the moment the com chatter might not know. I simply don't know if Israel executed the people or not. Its not like someone getting shot is something the camera operators can simply turn a blind eye towards (how a stationary security camera could do as you say I don't know). How is it okay for a minute of edited footage to be released but not the video in its entirety? If Iran had stormed an Israeli civilian boat and killed 9 people who were close but not in Iran's territorial waters wouldn't you want to see the footage on the boat? Its a double standard to not ask for what is one of the most cement and trustworthy sources of evidence we have in our society- video.

Just show me the video. You worried its been tampered? Its in Israeli's hands. You worried it'll be taken out of context? Isn't what they showing now taken out of context? It'd shut me up and probably 500 million like me who just want to see the video that Israel is hiding.

[Mikey]

I didn't say that I don't want to see the entire, unedited record. I said that neither side will ever allow for that.

It'd shut me up and probably 500 million like me who just want to see the video that Israel is hiding.

Showing the video won't help, because you've already decided that Israel is guilty of something - as evidenced by this quote. Cenk, and you, and many like you who already assume that Israel is in the wrong simply because it's Israel, could see the video in its entirety and will just claim that it's incomplete or doctored.

[Monroe]

No, we say Israel is not innocent simply because its Israel. How would you like it if you were accused of murder and the murder was caught on tape in its entirety and the only footage they show the jury is of you walking nearby where it happened? Showing the full footage is only common sense. And the only side not allowing it is Israel. They are acting like they have something to hide and usually when you act like you have something to hide you do have something to hide. Now Israel might be innocent but there's no way we'll know unless they show the footage.

And don't worry there's still enough for us critics to complain about Israel. We can let this one go if Israel did nothing wrong :p

[sunnyside]

I'd like to point out that the video will be reviewed in its entirety by national and hopefully international investigators, and they will carefully observe it and come to some conclusions.

This is very different from releasing it to the peanut gallery.

Again, what happened on that ship was not a love in. Even if everything went down as in the Israeli account, it's still potent propaganda.

The people who would not be convinced by the findings of an international investigation aren't going to be swayed by releasing the video anyway.

[Monroe]

I'd like to point out that the video will be reviewed in its entirety by national and hopefully international investigators, and they will carefully observe it and come to some conclusions.

Awesome, I had not heard they were releasing it internationally. Last I heard Turkey was still asking for it.

The people who would not be convinced by the findings of an international investigation aren't going to be swayed by releasing the video anyway.

True, so long as Turkey is on the board I'm happy then. It was mainly an incident involving Turkey. Even the American citizen was also a Turkish citizen. Turkey in the past has been relatively friendly with Israel so if they say its no issue then I'll take their word.

[Mikey]

How would you like it if you were accused of murder and the murder was caught on tape in its entirety and the only footage they show the jury is of you walking nearby where it happened?

Depends. Hass the jury - much like the international community about which we're speaking - already decided that I'm guilty before the trial, and will they ignore any evidence to the contrary?

Showing the full footage is only common sense.

As Sunny alluded, showing the slavering masses makes zero sense at all, because (as I alluded earlier) all of us have already made up our minds one way or the other, and will find a way to decry any evidence to the contrary.

They are acting like they have something to hide

No, they are acting like a sovereign nation - a defensive one, for sure, but that in part has been earned.

Turkey in the past has been relatively friendly with Israel so if they say its no issue then I'll take their word.

Apparently, you haven't read anything Erdogan has been saying in the last week. Even before the existence of video evidence was known, he was on what can only be described as a witch-hunt. Turkey has long been on a course to try and claim greater status on the world stage - part of this is to gain status in the eyes of fellow Islamic nations, and the most expedient way to do that is to repudiate Israel.

[Monroe]

Never mind that Turkey is Israel's top military partner in the region and does joint task forces together? They are naturally upset since 9 of their civilians died. Any politician would show some anger. It doesn't mean their entire foreign policy towards Israel has changed as they haven't canceled any joint drills or treaties over it. I think the only one who has made up their mind completely, regardless of what evidence that might come to light is you. You're against showing video because why? People who think Israel is guilty might rethink Israel is guilty? If the jury in our hypothetical trial thought you were guilty wouldn't you want to show the complete tapes still? Whats the alternative? Have them still think you're guilty? You're damned if you don't but if you do you might sway some of those jury members.

[Monroe]

Oh and I was doing some research to try to find that list of contraband items and I found something interesting. Other activists had ran the blockade before. So its not like this blockade was certain they would be stopped. Now I'm sure some of them hoped they would (Probably didn't expect deaths) but I think most of them thought they would be successful. You don't raise funds for a butt load of humanitarian aid in hopes of being caught.

[Sionnach Glic]

I'd imagine that those on the ship were a mixed bunch.
There were undoubtedly some people who were genuinely interested in distributing aid to the people of Gaza, hoping they could successfully run the blockade, and who wanted no blood spilt on either side.
There were likely more people who simply wanted to score some PR points either from being seen handing out food and medicine to the people of Gaza, or from being stopped and forced to turn back by the evil oppressive Israelis. They probably didn't give a damn whether the blockade-run was intercepted or not, but I doubt these people wanted bloodshed or death.
Then there was the almost certain presence of a faction who figured that the best way to achieve their goals would be to have images of Israeli officials attacking the blockade-runners flashing across all the big international news stations. While I don't think they were willing to have themselves be shot for their cause, I've no doubt that they'd be more than eager to provoke the Israelis into beating them or doing other "abusive" acts in front of a camera. They probably didn't think that the Israelis would go so far as to open fire with live guns, however, but their bosses safe and sound back home were probably high-fiving each other when "Israel attacks convoy - 10 dead" first broke on the news.

[Mikey]

I don't think anyone looks at a blockade of this sort and thinks, "Oh, someone got through before, I must be guaranteed success."

In general here's how I see it:

a) Call me a cynic, but I don't believe we will ever see an un-spun presentation of evidence from either side. What's more, I don't believe that any such evidence will change the minds of anyone on either side of the issue.

b) If it is somehow proven that the Israeli soldiers opened fire before being attacked, or executed people who had surrendered in an understandable manner, I will happily condemn them (at least their commanders and anyone involved in giving such standing orders) as war criminals. OTOH, I do not believe that if it is proven that the Israelis only returned fire a/o fired in self-defense, that anyone on the other side of the issue will condemn the "activists" or agree that the Israeli soldiers were within their rights. N.B., this is completely independent of how anyone feels about the blockade being in place.

[Monroe]

On point B that's a big generalization isn't it? I for one wouldn't mind being proven wrong. I think I opened up with this debate with 'if these reports are true'. I want to know for my own curiosity.

[Mikey]

Yes, it's a huge, sweeping generalization. That's why I used the phrase "I do not believe..." It's my (admittedly) cynical opinion - and one, BTW, of which I would happily be disabused.

[Sionnach Glic]

To be perfectly honest, I think that you're right on that matter. Most people will just swiftly try and sweep the whole incident under the carpet and move on with no comment.

That's certainly not to say that all of them will, of course. I've no doubt that there are quite a few who would admit that they were wrong.