Russia Russin'

[Aaron]

If Russia's actual problem with Georgia is there attempts join NATO and the expansion of the alliance than they have truely gone off the deep end. The former Soviet bloc nations that have joined in recent years add next to nothing to NATO's combat capability, they are forced to adopt compatible equipment and standards which result in an actual downsizing of their militaries as they purchase more expensive equipment. And it will be years if not decades before they can be upto spped training wise with the original NATO cadre.

[Mikey]

You hosers are all missing the point that we've been making about US-bashing. Yes, I've been one of the more vocal critics of American policy in many areas among my circle of acquaintances. What I mentioned, and Kendall mistakenly refers to as Sunnyside "defending a sacred cow," is the fact that you often use tangential - or even completely unrelated - fora to take pot-shots at the US. OK, so the US has done lots of bad things. What in the name of anything has this to do with the fact that we may or may not feel that Russia is in the wrong regarding this topic's supposed theme?

Sure, you can take criticism of Canada. Nobody criticized Canada's lack of intervention in Darfur, because Canada obviously doesn't feel the same responsibilty to the global community that you expect we should, or - more probably - the world has come to expect Canada to do nothing. Neither I, nor Sunny, nor Monroe, nor anyone that I can think of here has (for example) brought up criticisms of Canada - especially not ones which contain more vitriol than actual critique - in, say, a topic about cotton candy.

Bottom line is this: Do I love my country? Hell yes. Do I accept, condone, or agree with everything it does? Hell, no. Do I mind criticism of America? No, again, although insults =/= critical thought. Is any random place the place for such criticism? No.

Kendall - I get it. An American fragged you, and you have the right to be pissed. The Army dropped the ball, and didn't take the opportunity to do the right thing. However, I didn't do anything to you; neither did any American on this board; neither did the entire American populace at large. Stop taking it out on us and then trying to convince us that it's rational criticism.

[sunnyside]

It would take an Alliance, say like NATO to do the job,

Personally I think a lack of such functions alliances is one of the problems in the world today, and why I wish the EU would become a respectable superpower. The power vacuum tempts all kinds of bad stuff, from everybody in a position to exploit it really.

If Russia's actual problem with Georgia is there attempts join NATO and the expansion of the alliance than they have truely gone off the deep end. The former Soviet bloc nations that have joined in recent years add next to nothing to NATO's combat capability, they are forced to adopt compatible equipment and standards which result in an actual downsizing of their militaries as they purchase more expensive equipment. And it will be years if not decades before they can be upto spped training wise with the original NATO cadre.

I believe Russia's problem with NATO boxing them in is:

1. I means that it gets harder for them to control things further away. A nation might be less willing to follow Russia's terms on pipelines and the like if they know that, unlike Georgia, if they're invaded there will be a counter attack.

2. Missile defense. The more countries with anti missile systems and especially the closer they are to Russia the greater the odds a missile launch will get put down.

3. They are kind of in an awkward position in some spots Navy wise. They have/want naval bases in some regions of the Ukraine and Georgia that have highish Russian populations. They may want to move on those in the near future.

I can understand them not liking being boxed in. But it wouldn't matter unless they were looking to play a little dirty and bully some nations into Russian favorable trade deals or to conquer more territory.

[Aaron]

You hosers are all missing the point that we've been making about US-bashing. Yes, I've been one of the more vocal critics of American policy in many areas among my circle of acquaintances. What I mentioned, and Kendall mistakenly refers to as Sunnyside "defending a sacred cow," is the fact that you often use tangential - or even completely unrelated - fora to take pot-shots at the US. OK, so the US has done lots of bad things. What in the name of anything has this to do with the fact that we may or may not feel that Russia is in the wrong regarding this topic's supposed theme?

Once again, why is criticising the US giving everone else a free pass?

Sure, you can take criticism of Canada. Nobody criticized Canada's lack of intervention in Darfur, because Canada obviously doesn't feel the same responsibilty to the global community that you expect we should, or - more probably - the world has come to expect Canada to do nothing. Neither I, nor Sunny, nor Monroe, nor anyone that I can think of here has (for example) brought up criticisms of Canada - especially not ones which contain more vitriol than actual critique - in, say, a topic about cotton candy.

Actually we've recieved a fair amount of flak over Darfur, as has NATO as a whole and the EU, even China and Russia have been blasted over it. Now it's kind of hard to do much when the Sudanese government will only admit AU troops isn't it? But hey that hasn't stopped the worlds wacka-loons from complaining before.

And frankly, it's best to stay out of Africa. Even if the West saved Darfur now, ten years after we leave it'll collapse into civil war and genocide again. Look at Somalia.

Bottom line is this: Do I love my country? Hell yes. Do I accept, condone, or agree with everything it does? Hell, no. Do I mind criticism of America? No, again, although insults =/= critical thought. Is any random place the place for such criticism? No.

A discussion about Russians actions in Georgia are going to lead to a discussion of US actions, the similarity between the offensive in Georgia and the actions in Iraq and Afghanistan are blatently obvious. I however expect far more in the way of warcrimes in Georgia than I do in Iraq and Afghanistan, that's a forgone conclusion with the Russian Army involved.

Kendall - I get it. An American fragged you, and you have the right to be pissed. The Army dropped the ball, and didn't take the opportunity to do the right thing. However, I didn't do anything to you; neither did any American on this board; neither did the entire American populace at large. Stop taking it out on us and then trying to convince us that it's rational criticism.

I see you've really been paying attention. I was injured through the actions of my own comrades, not Yanks. Yanks have however fragged several of my countrymen. What that has to do with a discussion about your government and it's policies, I have no idea.

I believe Russia's problem with NATO boxing them in is:

1. I means that it gets harder for them to control things further away. A nation might be less willing to follow Russia's terms on pipelines and the like if they know that, unlike Georgia, if they're invaded there will be a counter attack.

A counter-attack from what? Europe? As much as I respect the militaries in Europe, they ceased to have the capability to project force that far long ago. Hell Germany only has one armoured battalion now, ten years ago they had a division.

2. Missile defense. The more countries with anti missile systems and especially the closer they are to Russia the greater the odds a missile launch will get put down.

Yet there were no plans to put missiles or even radars in Georgia, the country wasn't even on the list to be admitted to NATO or the EU.

3. They are kind of in an awkward position in some spots Navy wise. They have/want naval bases in some regions of the Ukraine and Georgia that have highish Russian populations. They may want to move on those in the near future.

Except the Russian Navy is largely a collection of rusted hulks in port, the have some capability left and are trying to rebuild but even during the Cold War they were largely relegated to a side role. They would have been more of a nuisance than anything else. And that doesn't look to change in the near future. They have to much of a gap to close on NATO to catch up.

I can understand them not liking being boxed in. But it wouldn't matter unless they were looking to play a little dirty and bully some nations into Russian favorable trade deals or to conquer more territory.

All their gaining is a buffer in this, a buffer from nothing. NATO and the EU have neither the means or the will to do anything to Russia and it's only their own parinoia that drives them to this.

Mind you it's not like it's any secret that the Russians will bully, bribe and coierce anyone they can into orbiting them. They have a long and sordid history of that.

Personally I think a lack of such functions alliances is one of the problems in the world today, and why I wish the EU would become a respectable superpower. The power vacuum tempts all kinds of bad stuff, from everybody in a position to exploit it really.

The problem being that NATO has never been of one mind and always had competing interests *cough*France*cough* and since the end of the Cold War has been in even less agreement. Look at Afghanistan and how many nations opted out or for a non-combat role. And I hardly think we need to go over the flaws in EU unity here, there's been more than a few threads on the matter.

[Aaron]

Wow, reading that over it's obvious that one should not post at 0200. Sunnyside, Mikey and any other Yanks on the board, you have my apologies.

[KuvahMagh]

I know these countries who are being looked at for NATO or other Treaties with the West will take a while to get up to speed in NATO. What I meant was that the Russians are trying to come back from a rather humiliating defeated, they were the second largest superpower, when they shifted a portion of their Army everyone sat in fear, and then to loose it all without getting to use it... Now that they have a stronger economy, partially thanks to the worlds reliance on Oil, they will likely want to make up for that loss. It makes it much harder to try and convince those around you to tow your party line when they have an Alliance behind them. I mean if Russia really wanted to they could just resort to Military Force but as has been said that isn't their style unless they have to.

[Aaron]

I know these countries who are being looked at for NATO or other Treaties with the West will take a while to get up to speed in NATO. What I meant was that the Russians are trying to come back from a rather humiliating defeated, they were the second largest superpower, when they shifted a portion of their Army everyone sat in fear, and then to loose it all without getting to use it... Now that they have a stronger economy, partially thanks to the worlds reliance on Oil, they will likely want to make up for that loss. It makes it much harder to try and convince those around you to tow your party line when they have an Alliance behind them. I mean if Russia really wanted to they could just resort to Military Force but as has been said that isn't their style unless they have to.

You know, they could awalys just join NATO. That gets them all the security they imagine they need and gives them a ton more influence then what they have.

[Mikey]

Wow, reading that over it's obvious that one should not post at 0200. Sunnyside, Mikey and any other Yanks on the board, you have my apologies.

Same time zone here, Kendall. I was merely trying to illustrate the fact that what you may intend as deserved criticism may be perceived as bashing. I meant nothing personal at all.

[Aaron]

The Australian

PRIME Minister Kevin Rudd witnessed a heated discussion between US President George W. Bush and his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin, over Russia's invasion of a tiny neighbouring country as athletes paraded before them in the Opening Ceremony on Friday night.

Mr Rudd revealed in an interview with Beijing Now in Beijing on Saturday that he was sitting just two rows behind Mr Bush when an "animated" discussion between he and Mr Putin broke out over Russia's advance into South Ossetia, a breakaway region in neighbouring Georgia.

"The President and Mr Putin were in animated conversation two seats in front of us and I imagine they had a few things on their agenda," Mr Rudd said.

Mr Rudd said that Mr Bush appeared to be making a strong point to the Russian Prime Minister, even as the world's elite athletes filed into Beijing's Bird's Nest stadium.

Mr Rudd backed the US President's position.

"Our position, like the Americans, is that it's important for peace and stability to return to this part of Georgia," he said.

"We recognise and continue to recognise Georgia's soverignty over Ossetia and therefore it's important that Russia cease its military involvement.

"This problem in Ossetia has been brewing for quite some time. Certainly the timing of the actions on the part of the Russians, that's a question best put to them. What I know is the international community is speaking with one voice in support of the cessation of hostilities by the Russians."

Russia and Georgia are locked in a bloody battle over the independent territory, with reports of 1400 people killed.

Georgian security officials said that Russian planes had bombed a military base outside the Georgian capital Tbilisi, killing three Georgian soldiers.

The tiny territory consists of just 70,000 people but the issue threatens to develop into a full-blown crisis after President Bush backed Georgia and warned Russia to roll back its tank fleets.

Georgian leader Mikheil Saakashvili, who has forged close ties with the West, warned that other European countries could follow if South Ossetia were allowed to fall.

"What Russia is doing in Georgia is open, unhidden aggression and a challenge to the whole world," he said.

"If the whole world does not stop Russia today, then Russian tanks will be able to reach any other European capital."

His warning was backed by the might of the US, with Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice sending a stern message to the former Cold War foe.

"We call on Russia to cease attacks on Georgia by aircraft and missiles, respect Georgia's territorial integrity, and withdraw its ground combat forces from Georgian soil," she said.

Mr Rudd met Chinese President Hu Jintao in Beijing yesterday and raised with him Russia's act of aggression at a time when the world has its head turned towards the Olympics.

"It is a matter of deep concern ... China is a global force and I anticipate it will be part of our discussions," he said.

Mr Rudd left Beijing for South Korea this morning, but not before taking in the Opals women's basketball team's opening round victory over Belarus yesterday and the Australian swimming team's first heats in the pool last night.

The presence of former prime minister John Howard at the Games threatened to overshadow Mr Rudd's visit, but he laughed off any talk of tension.

"This is team Australia, so it was good to have the former Prime Minister and Mrs Howard,'' he said.

"Therese and I were very pleased to see them. One thing about Australian sport, it should be above and beyond party politics."

Mr Rudd, although not a renowned sports lover, rejected the suggestion that Mr Howard was a greater authority on the subject as Prime Minister.

"I've watched every Olympics since '68 and I have sat glued to the television set for every Games since then ... even the disaster in Montreal,'' he said.

"I'm passionate about how our athletes perform. It is so much part and parcel of how Australia is seen."

Mr Rudd was well aware that Malcom Fraser was the last previous Prime Minister to travel abroad for an Olympics, in 1976, to the Montreal Games in which Australia did not win a single gold medal.

He said that Australia was now an Olympic heavyweight, admitting that more funding was needed to keep up with countries such as Britain, France and Germany.

"I was talking to (Australian Olympic Committee president) John Coates about this today," he said.

"However Australia goes at these Olympics, he's proposing a national summit of the major sports to look at their plans for 2012 and 2016 ... and what further investment may be necessary from Government.

"The truth is we're up against Britain, France, Germany and Italy. These are countries which are three times, four times the size of Australia in terms of population, in terms of resources.

"For us to remain ahead of the game, we are going to have to continue to take things to the next level - that's what Coatesy's on about and that's what the Government's on about."

Well I think we pretty much all expected this. Remember it's only bad if other people do it. Lets all thank Bush for doing his best to make America look like assclowns.

[Captain Seafort]

To be fair to Bush, he's right. The fact that it's the pot calling the kettle black doesn't change that the kettle is black.

[Aaron]

Same time zone here, Kendall. I was merely trying to illustrate the fact that what you may intend as deserved criticism may be perceived as bashing. I meant nothing personal at all.

Perhaps it's just me but I don't mind if anyone crticises Canada or even bashes it, I slag my country a fair bit. Mostly for the First Nations getting continuely screwed and for electing Bush Jr. However I accept that others may be more sensitive, I know a guy that loses his mind if you so much say that the Canadian anthem is goofy...

[Aaron]

To be fair to Bush, he's right. The fact that it's the pot calling the kettle black doesn't change that the kettle is black.

True enough, I don't think to many folk are going to see it that way though. Maybe I don't give him enough credit, maybe he's actually realised what a colossal mess he's made and is trying to make ammends.

[Captain Seafort]

True enough, I don't think to many folk are going to see it that way though. Maybe I don't give him enough credit, maybe he's actually realised what a colossal mess he's made and is trying to make ammends.

Doubt it - I'm not about to give him that much credit, and I wouldn't be surprised if he simply doesn't see the similarities between Russia's invasion of Georgia and the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Or, for that matter, the irony of rebuking China's human rights record the day after the DoD announced that they intend to ignore sentences imposed by their own courts.

[Monroe]

I do think Bush has been coming around slowly. Kind of like when a kid gets in trouble by the way he reacted. From his perspective the world just won't see how right he is about Iraq and Afghanastan being evil. Personally I think Bush means good. Now Dick Cheney on the other hand I think just wants a profit.

[Aaron]

I do think Bush has been coming around slowly. Kind of like when a kid gets in trouble by the way he reacted. From his perspective the world just won't see how right he is about Iraq and Afghanastan being evil. Personally I think Bush means good. Now Dick Cheney on the other hand I think just wants a profit.

There's that old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions...