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Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:38 am
by Duskofdead
sunnyside wrote:But a key thing to remember is that there are a large number of people who have a serious issue with gay marriage.

Some maybe do just have some weird aversion of it that they don't want to let go of.

Many have religious reasons.

Some apperantly hate some of their own feelings on the issue and so lash out.

Some feel that it will result in a degredation of regular marriage, grandkids and/or other traditional stuff they hold dear.

Some fear it'll lead to a general increase in promiscuity in the culture at larger (personally I think that ship sailed in the 60's and has just kept going)

And others fear reverse discrimination and being looked down upon in a "metro" culture. (I've felt a bit of the sting of this in Philly, I can see where the temptation is.)

And some maybe just because it was how they were brought up, including all the gay jokes they hear in the gaming culture.

Anyway what I'm saying is that despite the tolerance generally shown out here in the intertubes, back in the real world people who dislike homosexuals/homosexuality to varying degrees make up the majority.
My honest thought is that when people vote, or talk about voting, or poll on the issue of, gay marriage, all they are doing in essence is giving an up or down vote on whether they "approve" of homosexuality. That's all. When straight people go down on voting day and stick it to gay people on a ballot issue to recognize civil unions or gay marriage or same sex domestic partner rights, they feel they are drawing a line where as a society we are saying no, we don't like this, we don't want this to reflect on who we are. And yes, a lot of that goes back to the ick factor, and a lot of it to sexual hangups and neuroses we have as a society.

They are not "protecting the sanctity of marriage", because they still recognize the right of Britney Spears to marry, pop out kids, etc.

They are not "protecting a religious definition of marriage" because there isn't one; churches could still decline to perform any marriage ceremony they wished, and marriage is a legal contract, not a religious one. Plus people are generally stupid and don't even think that deeply into the issue.

What it really comes down to is that gay people are one of the very, very last groups in the U.S. that it is still socially and institutionally acceptable and validated to discriminate against. We've lost the ability to do it, formally and overtly, to blacks. And to women. And to Jews, Catholics, the disabled, etc.

But you can still do it to gay people. There is still that formal, official, legal recognition that you are something a little bit more, and someone else is something a little bit less, because you are straight and they are gay. I won't go quite so far as to say second class citizen but a lot of that is in SPITE of society rather than "because" of society-- gay people can live in the closet, or be very discreet, and "infiltrate" any sort of job that ordinarily people would not feel comfortable allowing a gay person to have, be that teaching, being a "heartthrob" actor or model, being a counselor, a member of a church community, etc. But in a legal sense absolutely gay people in the U.S. are second class citizens, and your typical bellybutton picking Wal Mart shopping Joe slob out there LIKES that, because it makes him something "better" regardless of any merit or TOTAL lack thereof he has achieved in his own life. The very same mentality fueled segregation and continued de jure discrimination against black people for so long in our country.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:40 am
by Duskofdead
Teaos wrote:I was king about the fact sexuality is genetics and since your genes dont change children have the same sexuality as adults its just not as developed.
That is what I mean. You can't have any active sexual urges before any part of your sexual system has developed whatsoever. You can think you like how girls look or like playing house with them or whatever, or be curious about what they look like (forbidden fruit and all that) but the idea that you have a set , active sexuality at 6 or 7 or whatever is iffy at best.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 4:06 am
by Tsukiyumi
Duskofdead wrote:
Teaos wrote:I was king about the fact sexuality is genetics and since your genes dont change children have the same sexuality as adults its just not as developed.
That is what I mean. You can't have any active sexual urges before any part of your sexual system has developed whatsoever. You can think you like how girls look or like playing house with them or whatever, or be curious about what they look like (forbidden fruit and all that) but the idea that you have a set , active sexuality at 6 or 7 or whatever is iffy at best.
Certainly not "set", no.

By the time I was twelve, I was pretty much through with puberty, and I'd thought about girls in much more explicit ways than playing house, or mere curiosity...

I reached a lot of "milestones" sooner than most, though, so I guess I'd be the exception rather than the rule.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 4:11 am
by Duskofdead
Tsukiyumi wrote:
Duskofdead wrote:
Teaos wrote:I was king about the fact sexuality is genetics and since your genes dont change children have the same sexuality as adults its just not as developed.
That is what I mean. You can't have any active sexual urges before any part of your sexual system has developed whatsoever. You can think you like how girls look or like playing house with them or whatever, or be curious about what they look like (forbidden fruit and all that) but the idea that you have a set , active sexuality at 6 or 7 or whatever is iffy at best.
Certainly not "set", no.

By the time I was twelve, I was pretty much through with puberty, and I'd thought about girls in much more explicit ways than playing house, or mere curiosity...

I reached a lot of "milestones" sooner than most, though, so I guess I'd be the exception rather than the rule.
Don't get me wrong I'm not implying that before puberty you can "change" your sexuality; I don't mean not set in that way. I do mean, though, that most of what you are "interested" in at that point, you are socialized into. You are mimicking older male role models, or male peers, and you're also curious about the unknown. You're not seeking out women because of chemical and hormonal urges or from purely internal "sexuality" motivation-- though of course everyone enters puberty at different times.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 4:43 am
by Teaos
Don't get me wrong I'm not implying that before puberty you can "change" your sexuality; I don't mean not set in that way. I do mean, though, that most of what you are "interested" in at that point, you are socialized into. You are mimicking older male role models, or male peers, and you're also curious about the unknown. You're not seeking out women because of chemical and hormonal urges or from purely internal "sexuality" motivation-- though of course everyone enters puberty at different times.
I think what a lot of people are saying is that since you are born hetro or homosexual that a certain prejuidice may come with that to. Science has proven other though patterns are natural so it could be. I really have no opinion on it since there isnt enough proof either way.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:24 pm
by Aaron
Tsukiyumi wrote:
I also disagree. I was about five or six when I realized I liked girls, and started going through puberty at eight or nine. I guess it depends on your definition of "child".
It's complete BS. I have two children and have seen my son get an erection as a baby and witnessed them playing with themselves while in diapers. My son is now seven and he's started to look at woman (saying stuff like "mom her boobs aren't as big as yours" etc.).

There's a shitload of literature on childrens sexuality. It's even mentioned in parenting guides like What To Expect In The First Five Years.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:27 pm
by Aaron
Teaos wrote:I was thinking about the fact sexuality is genetics and since your genes dont change children have the same sexuality as adults its just not as developed.
Seems like it. My wife says that she has been interested in woman since she was seven. And you read countless personal accounts of the same thing.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:31 pm
by Aaron
Teaos wrote:
I think what a lot of people are saying is that since you are born hetro or homosexual that a certain prejuidice may come with that to. Science has proven other though patterns are natural so it could be. I really have no opinion on it since there isnt enough proof either way.
I suspect that the bigotry is a result of two things: upbringing (especially hardcore religious types) and a genetic "ick" factor. Humans evolved into animals that for thousands of years existed in small tribal groups. Homosexual members don't contribute children to the tribe and they compete for the already small number of potential mates (while not contributing to the gene pool). So there's not much in the way of benefit for the tribe.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:36 pm
by Teaos
I would think its mostly learned but I wouldnt be suprised to find out if it was partly genetic.

After all homosexuality is in the animal kingdom as well to no ill effects.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:41 pm
by Aaron
Teaos wrote:I would think its mostly learned but I wouldnt be suprised to find out if it was partly genetic.

After all homosexuality is in the animal kingdom as well to no ill effects.
Do homosexual animals come from species that mate for life? When I think of homosexual animals I think of Dolphins, Bonobos, Pigeons. I would think it would not be as big a deal for a group of Chimps to replace a lost breeding pair than it would for tribal humans, the next tribe may be many days away. If they even encountered one.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:57 pm
by Teaos
A homosexual dolphin or Bonobo will still knock up a female of their species so it has no ill effects. Basically they will stick it in any hole they can.

I know Lions quite often engage in homosexual acts.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 2:52 pm
by Blackstar the Chakat
Teaos wrote:A homosexual dolphin or Bonobo will still knock up a female of their species so it has no ill effects. Basically they will stick it in any hole they can.
Doesn't work so well for humans though. Thats why a friend of mine is no longer allowed in Seaworld.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:08 pm
by Sionnach Glic
A homosexual dolphin or Bonobo will still knock up a female of their species so it has no ill effects.
Technicaly, that'd be a bisexual dolphin or bonobo, in that case.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:21 pm
by Teaos
If a gay guy sleeps with a woman once does that make him bi?

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:25 pm
by Aaron
Teaos wrote:If a gay guy sleeps with a woman once does that make him bi?
Depends, has he always had an interest in both? Is he doing it just to try it? Is he doing it to fit in with straight friends?