Your political ideology

[Sionnach Glic]

Yeah, he made some idiotic claim that discussing the Holocaust in Europe would get you arrested.

[stitch626]

No, don't even mention him. He isn't worth it... though his claim about that was kind of funny.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Well, Stitch... You know the old saying about those who forget history, right?

T_A has to be held up as... well, as what he is. Don't dwell, but don't forget.

[mwhittington]

His gene pool didn't have enough chlorine in it, nor was there a lifeguard on duty.

[sunnyside]

Yeah, he made some idiotic claim that discussing the Holocaust in Europe would get you arrested.

Actually for the record denying the holocaust is a crime in a number of European countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_again ... ust_denial
Some of these are a little subjective. Though Liechtenstein gets right to the point with

"Whoever by the word, through pictures, in writing or electronic media denies, coarsely trivialises or tries to justify the Holocaust or other crimes against humanity shall be punished with imprisonment of up to two years or a fine."

And actually in the Eurpean union it's a crime to deny the Holocaust if it is "carried out in a manner likely to disturb public order or which is threatening, abusive or insulting." So in the UK presumably you are free to type away just don't go yelling it at a rally.

[Captain Seafort]

Holocaust denial is a crime in some countries, but there are no laws against discussing it.

In any event, this isn't Germany, Austria, or wherever. This is the UK, and we don't have any laws against holocaust denial whatsoever. So the bastard couldn't hide behind that lie.

[Aaron]

Holocaust denial is a crime in some countries, but there are no laws against discussing it.

In any event, this isn't Germany, Austria, or wherever. This is the UK, and we don't have any laws against holocaust denial whatsoever. So the bastard couldn't hide behind that lie.

I suspect the EU would have a hard time prosecuting such a crime in a country where the populace is largely against the EU.

[Teaos]

The EU needs to grow a pair and stop repressing freedom of speech.

[Tsukiyumi]

The EU needs to grow a pair and stop repressing freedom of speech.

The only thing the EU is going to grow a pair of any time soon is a pair of man-boobs from complacency and lack of exercise.

[Captain Seafort]

The EU needs to grow a pair and stop repressing freedom of speech.

Micromanaging everything is how the EU works - I've lost track of the number of directives they've issued on various subjects, some of which make some kind of sense, others are frankly ludicrous (banning the display of Imperial weights and measures springs to mind).

In the case of the example sunny raised, that isn't a ban on holocaust denial - it's a effectively a ban on disturbing the peace. Why they feel the need the have regulations for each and every possible argument likely to get people's backs up is beyond me.

[Duskofdead]

The EU needs to grow a pair and stop repressing freedom of speech.

While NOT being some sort of right-wing fascist, I diverge a bit from the usual western thinking insistence on absolute freedom of speech stuff. Laws have always recognized the difference between free speech and yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. At the risk of sounding like thought police, I think there are some things which simply serve no purpose except as being a channelling medium for hate speech or provoking extreme social reactions, very frequently by small extremist political groups just trying to get media time or attention. Holocaust denial is definitely one of them. I'm sorry but I will be closed minded and say that no one in their right mind or at all interested in any sort of reasonable discussion exercises their "free speech" by going around denying the Holocaust happened, least of all around/to people that they damn well know from the get go either are Jewish themselves or have friends/family who are, or have friends/family who fought in WWII.

When people do this, I am unconvinced in the extreme that they are honest people just expressing their free speech rights. I think that they are usually very twisted people with vicious ulterior motives and simply trying to initiate a very pronounced reaction, very much like someone yelling fire in a crowded theater. While physical harm may not be as likely to directly result, the intent on causing trouble and harm to others is essentially the same.

[Granitehewer]

dusk, i do mean this nicely, but during the holocaust,do you realise how many gentiles also died/forcefully sterilised/vivisected/tortured, from priests to artisans to gypsies to franco-colonials to handicaps to intellectuals to dissident aristocrats to peasants?
The holocaust is only a jewish phenomena to zionists, and should be as sensitive to all of those involved.
I mean this respectfully and without a hint of malice, it just irks me that the media have to portray poor wretches in tattered rags wearing star of davids pouring against barbed wire fences, mikey as a rational human being will tell you that our image of the holocaust today is unrepresentative of the universal percolating all consuming horror that occured.

[Mikey]

Well put. I've had arguments with scholars and rabbis who have referred to the "six million" victims of the Holocaust. It is a phenomenon I've noticed among many Jews - American Jews, at least, and not just Zionists - to forget about the other 7 million victims of the Holocaust, as well as the victims of the war proper; and it's an issue I've tried to correct when I can.

[Duskofdead]

dusk, i do mean this nicely, but during the holocaust,do you realise how many gentiles also died/forcefully sterilised/vivisected/tortured, from priests to artisans to gypsies to franco-colonials to handicaps to intellectuals to dissident aristocrats to peasants?
The holocaust is only a jewish phenomena to zionists, and should be as sensitive to all of those involved.
I mean this respectfully and without a hint of malice, it just irks me that the media have to portray poor wretches in tattered rags wearing star of davids pouring against barbed wire fences, mikey as a rational human being will tell you that our image of the holocaust today is unrepresentative of the universal percolating all consuming horror that occured.

Granite, no offense was taken whatsoever. In fact I think you just read something into my post that wasn't quite there... I definitely am not unaware of the fact that it was not only Jews who suffered under Nazi rule, or even in Nazi camps. It was dissidents, undesirables, the politically inconvenient and generally anyone that anyone in power didn't like, for any reason. In fact I even mentioned in another thread I believe that it's an interesting commentary on Americans that they will line up for Stephen Spielberg movies about WWII and talk in line for the movie about how horrible genocide and how bad, bad, bad the Nazis were to the Jews, and then promptly turn around on an Indian (Native American/First Nations) rights issue and talk about how that was in the past, get over it already.

To make a long story short, if your point is that the holocaust has been politically re-created to be one thing and not be various other things, for a variety of social and political reasons, I agree with you already. The same can be said truthfully about a lot of historical injustices.

[Teaos]

Freedom of speech needs to be absolute.

Sure some people will just say stuff to stir shit and get their 15 minutes. But what about the people who do have a ligitimate claim?

A resercher at the local university wrote a paper on how the number of 6 million may be wrong and it may be closer to 5-5.5. Thats hardly denial, its a ligitmate claim to try and get the facts recorded in history as close to reality as possible. But reserch like that is either banned or severly frowned apon, even though he never once said anything that could be considered offencive to any rational person.

Thats why you should never ban any sort of speech.