DPRK shells inhabited S Korean island

[Tyyr]

Hey, I contributed my part already. The reason I was asking was because some people here seemed more knowledgeable than I about the numbers involved, so I thought I'd as well leverage.

Problem is, I don't know much about plane capacity. So if you tell me "the George Washington is a Nimitz", I really don't know how strong or weak that is. Nor do I know how good is a Super Hornet unless you actually state they could more than hold their own against NK's airforce.

I just have a general lack of knowledge when it comes to military hardware.

It's the fucking internet. Wiki-fucking-pedia. None of this is classified shit, just look it up.

[Lighthawk]

I just have a general lack of knowledge when it comes to military hardware.

Here, educate yourself.

Scroll down to the Military tab

This is a basic primer, when you come across something you need to know more about, head over to Wikipedia, and if you're really motivate, follow up with a trip to your local library.

[Lighthawk]

I can't imagine that any modern military - even one like NK's - would consider a succesful torpedo launch to be a "test of their naval strike capability."

Yeah most likely. It just seemed like one of those odd ball thoughts that someone with an over inflated ego and too little common sense might have.

[SolkaTruesilver]

They're out numbered 3:1 by the NK armed forces.

Wikipedia lists 1,1 million active troopers for North Korea against 687,000 for South Korea, not even 2:1.

If you take reserve forces, it's roughly 8 million each (+200k for NK). But if I had to make a guess, NK's reserve force are probably a lot more capable than SK's.


And Seafort, "gibberish"? How's asking question about South Korea's airpower "gibberish"? Just don't answer the question if you don't know nor don't care. Don't start flaming in a thread that was going quite well. My interests lies more into geopolitics than military hardware, that's all.

[Deepcrush]

Wikipedia lists 1,1 million active troopers for North Korea against 687,000 for South Korea, not even 2:1.

And...? That's wiki to which I don't trust.

Compared modern western armies, maybe. Compared to the DPRK? I doubt it.

You'd be surprised, those NKs are pretty damn good in the field. As you say they aren't a match for a modern western army but against the SKs they are superior one-v-one.

[Lighthawk]

My interests lies more into geopolitics than military hardware, that's all.

Well in this case, the military hardware has a drastic effect on the geopolitics. And I think people are annoyed because asking for a lesson on modern warfare on a forum is pretty impractical. To say there is a lot to know would be a vast understatement. It'd be like asking for a complete break down of the Star Wars EU, no one is going to take the time to write out the hundreds of pages it'd take to accomplish that.

[Mikey]

And Seafort, "gibberish"? How's asking question about South Korea's airpower "gibberish"? Just don't answer the question if you don't know nor don't care. Don't start flaming in a thread that was going quite well. My interests lies more into geopolitics than military hardware, that's all.

Remember a few posts back in this thread when Tyyr mentioned the MLRS? You'll notice my response was along the lines of "I don't know" regarding the availability of the MLRS in theater. Those are not dirty words, nor are they emasculating ones.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Wikipedia lists 1,1 million active troopers for North Korea against 687,000 for South Korea, not even 2:1.

And...? That's wiki to which I don't trust.

I don't know. Somebody told me to f****** google it, and I did. Look where it got me.

Point is, I'd rather trust people who actually know about this stuff than thing I find over the internet which I have no idea the level of reliability. I wasn't asking for a complete course on Korea, just the relative air power between DPRK and ROK, which Tyyr did extremely well, quickly and comprehensively. With that, I can have a rough idea of the kind of warfare DPRK have the opportunity to wage upon ROK when Airpower is concerned. I could have googled information about DPRK, but it would have given me sheer numbers, no the interpretation.

People in life happen to have different interest, and I always found that a knowledgeable person is much more insightful than any book when it comes to get useful information. You wanna ask me about Star Wars EU? Please ask questions, and I'll do my best to give you answers in context.

[BigJKU316]

Wikipedia lists 1,1 million active troopers for North Korea against 687,000 for South Korea, not even 2:1.

And...? That's wiki to which I don't trust.

I don't know. Somebody told me to f****** google it, and I did. Look where it got me.

Point is, I'd rather trust people who actually know about this stuff than thing I find over the internet which I have no idea the level of reliability. I wasn't asking for a complete course on Korea, just the relative air power between DPRK and ROK, which Tyyr did extremely well, quickly and comprehensively. With that, I can have a rough idea of the kind of warfare DPRK have the opportunity to wage upon ROK when Airpower is concerned. I could have googled information about DPRK, but it would have given me sheer numbers, no the interpretation.

People in life happen to have different interest, and I always found that a knowledgeable person is much more insightful than any book when it comes to get useful information. You wanna ask me about Star Wars EU? Please ask questions, and I'll do my best to give you answers in context.

The long and short of it is the DPRK would get crushed into dust on the air and at sea within a matter of hours. Whatever did survive the first few hours in terms of those type of things would be wiped out by B-2's and cruise missiles in as long as it takes for them to get there.

The only place things are in question is on land where the lack of ability to give ground forces the South to get right up on the border under the NK artillery, which would eventually we wiped out by airpower and counter-battery fire, but would cause a disaster in the short term, particularly if they fire at Seoul.

Beyond that if the NK's were to take Seoul and/or just flat not give up after having their Air Force wiped out and being immobilized for lack of trucks and fuel then you are talking about a huge mess diggint them out of cities and hills and mountains and no one wants to do that.

This is just a war that no one is going to want to fight. The First Gulf War was pretty much perfect for Western Forces as it was like working on a sand table exercise. No civilians really to get in the way, wide open spaces that let you use mobility and high tech forces to their max. An enemy that was over-extended and essentially cut off from support but stuck out in the open just asking to be rolled up.

This is the exact opposite. The terrain is crap which means most fighting has to be done at fairly close range. There are millions of civilians right in the zone of combat. Weather and terrain negate a lot of things airpower can do for you (though it would still render the NK's immobile within a few days of the start of combat other than walking) and the enemy is likely sitting on a mountain of stores and munitions built up over the course of decades of lunatic rule.

Frankly if you were the commander of the South Korean forces the most civilized thing to do if forced to fight this war by higher ups would be to simply use nerve gas on NK military opposite the DMZ, drop a Nuke on the capitol and end it from the get go. You are going to have to kill most of those loons anyway as they are deeply brainwashed. Might as well do it without getting yourself shot to pieces in the process. Anything short of that level of commitment on a first strike by the South likely sees many thousands if not more dead in the streets of Seoul and other border areas.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Frankly if you were the commander of the South Korean forces the most civilized thing to do if forced to fight this war by higher ups would be to simply use nerve gas on NK military opposite the DMZ, drop a Nuke on the capitol and end it from the get go. You are going to have to kill most of those loons anyway as they are deeply brainwashed. Might as well do it without getting yourself shot to pieces in the process. Anything short of that level of commitment on a first strike by the South likely sees many thousands if not more dead in the streets of Seoul and other border areas.

Man, you are talking about killing millions of theirs to preserve the lives of thousands of yours?

It will never pass. This ain't Israel!

[Captain Seafort]

Point is, I'd rather trust people who actually know about this stuff than thing I find over the internet which I have no idea the level of reliability. I wasn't asking for a complete course on Korea, just the relative air power between DPRK and ROK, which Tyyr did extremely well, quickly and comprehensively. With that, I can have a rough idea of the kind of warfare DPRK have the opportunity to wage upon ROK when Airpower is concerned. I could have googled information about DPRK, but it would have given me sheer numbers, no the interpretation.

Your contributions to this thread have included the following gems:

They have by far the largest industrial base and the most modern and efficient equipment. The only thing going for the North's way is their number and their capacity to go all-out because of less to lose.

Industrial output has a lot to say about a country's capacity to wage a war. It's not the all-in-all statistic, but it's a darn important factor. The North just can't field a proper mechanised modern army and keep it going far beyond their border. If anything, they will most likely try to be on the defensive for no stretching their lines.

These demonstrate a fundamental lack of understanding of how fucked the south is if hostilities resume.

Oh well. If guns really starts blazing, at least, the US have more than ennough materiel on the field there to make a big difference.

I wonder where is the closest Carrier fleet. Lemme check up my charts.

Complete ignorance of the presence of the 8th army, which would have been revealed by the most basic investigation of the military situation on the peninsular.

Less good news is, an Amphibious Warfare ship (the Essex) left its home port of Sabeso (Japan) and will reach Okinawa today. So if there is trouble arising, the US has quite a lot of gun in the area to join the fun, but might be a few hours late. I have no idea what is the threat range of these Amphibious Warfare ships.

Actually, I was more thinking of Amphibious deployment. What kind of transport aircrafts and troops the Essex host, and how quickly could they be relocated to support SK?

More fundamental lack of understanding of the problem facing the south. Knowing how many hours or days it will take an amphibious force to arrive will not save Seoul.

If US/SK managed to establish air superiority, I think the superior mechanised troops of South Korea could hold of any serious advance by the SK army. The big problem is, I don't think the US could neutralised the artillery positions of SK. If I was NK, I'd focus my air power on protecting these positions, so there is no quick wiping of the artillery.

Finally, you get to the point that people having been explaining for most of the thread.

As Mikey said, if you'd come into the thread with "I know very little about this subject, what would happen if..." then there wouldn't have been any aggro. If you'd backed off when Tyyr bitched at you, likewise. Do not expect sympathy when you barge into a topic you know little about and try throwing your weight around. You'll get slapped down hard by people who do know what they're talking about.

[Deepcrush]

Big, that is just utter crap. You start using chem/bio/nuke warfare and they'll respond in kind. Plus the back wash would put SK at risk as well. Fighting like that is just going to get both countries destroyed beyond repair.

[BigJKU316]

Frankly if you were the commander of the South Korean forces the most civilized thing to do if forced to fight this war by higher ups would be to simply use nerve gas on NK military opposite the DMZ, drop a Nuke on the capitol and end it from the get go. You are going to have to kill most of those loons anyway as they are deeply brainwashed. Might as well do it without getting yourself shot to pieces in the process. Anything short of that level of commitment on a first strike by the South likely sees many thousands if not more dead in the streets of Seoul and other border areas.

Man, you are talking about killing millions of theirs to preserve the lives of thousands of yours?

It will never pass. This ain't Israel!

No one is to say that if they get desperate the North won't rain down the same on Seoul itself.

The point really is that if you decide to go to war to end the threat posed by the North you are going to have to kill millions anyway. Either you do it in the process of digging them all out of caves and basements with explosives and flame-throwers all the way up to the Chinese border or do it in the way I suggest they will be just as dead either way. The leadership is hardly going to allow the people to evacuate towns and cities if you move North against them and would most likely dig in their troops right along side hospitals and civilians to make it all the more dificult.

Ideally, as I said, you don't fight this at all and hope someday they just give up and join the world. But if you have to fight it you are looking at mountains of dead no matter how you do it.

[BigJKU316]

Big, that is just utter crap. You start using chem/bio/nuke warfare and they'll respond in kind. Plus the back wash would put SK at risk as well. Fighting like that is just going to get both countries destroyed beyond repair.

I fully believe that if the South moves against NK artillery positions that the North is going to use those weapons anyway, before they are out of range of Seoul. Once that regime sees the writting on the wall they are that crazy that they won't go down with bullets in the clip so to speak.

[Deepcrush]

So we should just start nuking the place and hope for the best and tell Russia, China, South Korea and Japan... tough luck but you're fucked?

Yeah, that counts as total crap.