US vs Arizona

[Mikey]

In NJ, at any rate, you can get one from the DMV just like a license, only without the driving exams.

[Tyyr]

Same in Florida.

[Deepcrush]

Seems like everyone who is upset about this law is either to lazy to carry ID or just doesn't know where to get an ID.

[Nickswitz]

I guess so, i personally don't have a problem with the law as much as I would think, i mean if you happen to be out and don't have an ID on you then it sucks, but otherwise its a minor inconvenience, however, for those who don't have one on them at the time of being picked up it can become a major inconvenience as well as a violation of rights as a citizen.

[Mikey]

I don't like it - it encourages profiling and the resultant harassment of law-abiding citizens. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world and some less-than-perfect things must be done.

[stitch626]

I wonder if there are any birther cops in Arizona... then when Obama comes through on a visit they can detain him!

The only problem I have with this is that it follows the same principle that the Patriot Act (small part) did, that you are guilty until proven innocent. I can see this turning into another McCarthy thing.

[Captain Seafort]

I wonder if there are any birther cops in Arizona... then when Obama comes through on a visit they can detain him!

That would be amusing - the Arizona plod versus a few large gentlemen in suits with oversized left shoulders.

[Nickswitz]

What an interesting matchup that would be, hey, it sounds like something deadliest warrier should do.

[Deepcrush]

The only problem I have with this is that it follows the same principle that the Patriot Act (small part) did, that you are guilty until proven innocent. I can see this turning into another McCarthy thing.

I don't see how asking for ID from someone you just arrested or detained under cause is under similar vain to McCarthy or the Patriot Act. Since they have nothing in common, what is it you have against it?

[Mikey]

I wonder if there are any birther cops in Arizona... then when Obama comes through on a visit they can detain him!

The only problem I have with this is that it follows the same principle that the Patriot Act (small part) did, that you are guilty until proven innocent. I can see this turning into another McCarthy thing.

The law itself doesn't apply the same principle. The problem is that in practical use, it requires an individual officer to apply a judgement based on appearance... which can't be helped but to be impaired by some innate prejudices.

[stitch626]

It sure is the same as the Patriot act (the small part that was used, not the whole thing).

Patriot Act: someone says your a terrorist, you can be detained without anyone being informed until you are proven not to be (ie, assumed guilty).

This one: someone says you illegal, you can be detained without anyone being informed until you are proven not to be (ie, assumed guilty).

The ease of proving one's not guiltyness doesn't change the fact that both bypass the ideal of our legal process.
And not only do they have to have ID, that ID must be verified to be real. Not sure how long that takes. Never had to be done for me.

Unless they will require 2 forms of ID...

Add to that that there is no way to tell someone is illegal just by looking at them, the officers must use some sort of profiling. And a good amount of it will be racial (no matter how much they insist race won't be a factor ).

[Tsukiyumi]

Just for the record, here in Texas it's illegal not to carry a state-issued ID if you're over 18. Has been as long as I've lived here. They'll haul your ass in for not having one.

[Mikey]

Stitch, you're confusing detaining someone in accordance with this law with an actual arrest, indictment, or even allegation. Will this incur profiling? As I've already said, yes - and that sucks. Is profiling extant in places without this law? Yes, and it sucks. However, sheer logistics will prevent this from being a carte blanche for wholesale internment; and unfortunately, law-enforcement action needs to take place against people who do things that are illegal.

[stitch626]

Stitch, you're confusing detaining someone in accordance with this law with an actual arrest, indictment, or even allegation.

No I'm not. Under the Patriot Act, they were not arrested. If they had been arrested, they would have had a right to a lawyer.

Under both, they are detained until their innocence is determined. The only difference is that proving someone was not a terrorist was much more difficult than this. Hence the near indefinite detainment.

[Mikey]

Yes you are. Said detention isn't an assumption of guilt like an indictment is. Further, legal residents under this law won't be detained any longer than is necessary to get their ID out of their pocket.