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One thing I don't get is the free will argument. Why not create people with free will, but restrict their free will to choosing between different good actions?

Allegedly god does not want to limit free will. But god already DOES limit free will in numerous ways.

I want to flap my arms and fly up into the air. I will this to happen. It does not. The basic setup of the universe, which god created, disallows this expression of my free will. And I've no doubt we could think of countless similar examples. God has no problem limiting free will in this sense.

He also intervenes more directly when he feels like it. Where was Jonah's free will when he tried to disobey god? When Pharaoh decided to set the Jews free, god specifically hardens his heart against a course of action that god bullied him into taking in the first place... and then punishes the innocent citizens of Egypt for the change of heart that god himself caused!

Teaos wrote:If you don't like gay people blaim straight couples, they're the ones that keep having gay babies.

GrahamKennedy wrote:*snip Graham*

Because sometimes, even God can be a dick.

Ever heard that explanation?

LOL, can't say as I have!

Tsukiyumi wrote:
Hey, Kendall!

Are you done being AWOL?

Yep. I just remembered yesterday that the furry kid was banned, so I didn't have any excuse not to come back. Also, so very bored.

GrahamKennedy wrote:One thing I don't get is the free will argument. Why not create people with free will, but restrict their free will to choosing between different good actions?

Allegedly god does not want to limit free will. But god already DOES limit free will in numerous ways.

I want to flap my arms and fly up into the air. I will this to happen. It does not. The basic setup of the universe, which god created, disallows this expression of my free will. And I've no doubt we could think of countless similar examples. God has no problem limiting free will in this sense.

He also intervenes more directly when he feels like it. Where was Jonah's free will when he tried to disobey god? When Pharaoh decided to set the Jews free, god specifically hardens his heart against a course of action that god bullied him into taking in the first place... and then punishes the innocent citizens of Egypt for the change of heart that god himself caused!

On the Crusades, Jihad, etc... God creates people with free will, so they *should* have the will to reject God.

Whoops! Now, that's the greatest sin possible! Thanks Graham for summing up what I've long felt about the inherent hypocrisy here - God specifically creates us with Free will, but then punishes us when we express it. I always see religious fanatics (of any denomination) insist that THERE IS ONLY ONE CORRECT WAY TO LIVE!!!!!!!! Well, why then did God give us the ability to choose? Couldn't he have just created a bunch of robots?

Tsukiyumi wrote:

GrahamKennedy wrote:*snip Graham*

Because sometimes, even God can be a dick.

Ever heard that explanation?

Well, he did create us dicks in his image, so...

What I find interesting is that God, being all-knowing and stuff, knows automaticaly what we're going to do in life.
So, in effect, he creates us purely so he can send us to hell to endure torment for all eternity. God is one hell of a jackass.

idk if he knows.

Yes he's suppossed to be all-knowing (I forget the word) but with free will it's almost impossable for any one to predict more than a few seconds in advance (with specifics obviously, I don't need messages saying you predict Obama will take office or some crap like that).

Well free will destroys the idea of omniscience anyway. Freedom is the ability to choose between different options; that's what the word means! If god knows what I will do, then by definition I'm not making a choice.

not necessarily, in life there are no 50-50 choices. One option always has a lead simply based on your personaliy and the way you percieve the world and you two choices. If God knows everything about you, it's likely he'd know which choice you'd make.

Lt. Staplic wrote:not necessarily, in life there are no 50-50 choices. One option always has a lead simply based on your personaliy and the way you percieve the world and you two choices. If God knows everything about you, it's likely he'd know which choice you'd make.

So free will is just there to present the facade that Jebus's daddy isn't a colossal shithead?

no, it's there so we can live the lives we choose to.

even it it's 99.99% likly you choose option A, you still may act upon the 0.01% and choose option B

however while saying that, God know everything about you, he's been able to see your thought since before you can remember them, so he knows you intimately, if you choose the 0.01% option there would be a reason for it, and God would know that reason before hand the same as you and hence know that would be the option you pick.

Or we can go into Quantom physics and type 3 parallel universes where every possable outcome must occur, and say God is all-knowing because he knows the outcomes of all these choices.

Lt. Staplic wrote:not necessarily, in life there are no 50-50 choices. One option always has a lead simply based on your personaliy and the way you percieve the world and you two choices. If God knows everything about you, it's likely he'd know which choice you'd make.

Sorry, but saying that your personality and the way you perceive the world will lead you to make choices in a predictable way is simply another way of saying that you don't have free will.

If your actions are completely predictable then there is no free will, regardless of what it is that makes them predictable.