Sulu vs Chekov

[Sionnach Glic]

Yeah, I can't imagine that going peacefully.

[Teaos]

I wonder how first contact with a race like the Cardies would have gone?

Explosively I expect - given the Cardie mentality, I wouldn't be surprised if first contact turned into a firefight.

I believe its canon that the Cardassians were a religious, peaceful people back in the day, I'm not sure when that changed though.

[Captain Seafort]

The Bajoran Occupation lasted forty years IIRC, so they probably started their expanisionist streak some time in the 2320s.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

I wouldn't think a militarized, expansionist empire would like running against the borders of a far larger, established power.

[Grundig]

You know, that reminds me of when the founders decimated Cardassia. I think it was Damar who lamented all of the artists, craftsmen, and scholars deaths - basically Cardassian culture was wiped away overnight. I remember being honestly tearyeyed at that.

[katefan]

You know, that reminds me of when the founders decimated Cardassia. I think it was Damar who lamented all of the artists, craftsmen, and scholars deaths - basically Cardassian culture was wiped away overnight. I remember being honestly tearyeyed at that.

I have zero sympathy for the Cardassian people in general. Forty years of oppressing the Bajoran people not to mention initiating a war with the Federation is bad enough, but being total bastards to the people on the Maquis occupied worlds after they had given their word they would treat those people fairly was the last straw. Finally, allowing a total bastard like Gul Dukat to lead them down a path of destruction to reclaim some ephemeral past glory, to side with a race so obviously dedicated to the subjigation of all other alien races in a bid for personal glory means to me they got exactly what they deserved.

I am also not a fan of their attitude towards orphans. Children have no say in their destinies and for them to be ostracized due to a quirk of fate they have no power over is a terrible thing. The Cardassian culture is corrupt and deserved to be torn down to it's foundations. Maybe now they may have learned something, especially since the war has doubtless left so many orphans.

[Teaos]

Didnt WWI teach you anything? Being bast*rds to defeated enemies never ends well, were as if you imbrace them like the Marshall project you get yourself a powerful allie.

[Grundig]

You know, that reminds me of when the founders decimated Cardassia. I think it was Damar who lamented all of the artists, craftsmen, and scholars deaths - basically Cardassian culture was wiped away overnight. I remember being honestly tearyeyed at that.

I have zero sympathy for the Cardassian people in general. Forty years of oppressing the Bajoran people not to mention initiating a war with the Federation is bad enough, but being total bastards to the people on the Maquis occupied worlds after they had given their word they would treat those people fairly was the last straw. Finally, allowing a total b*****d like Gul Dukat to lead them down a path of destruction to reclaim some ephemeral past glory, to side with a race so obviously dedicated to the subjigation of all other alien races in a bid for personal glory means to me they got exactly what they deserved.

I am also not a fan of their attitude towards orphans. Children have no say in their destinies and for them to be ostracized due to a quirk of fate they have no power over is a terrible thing. The Cardassian culture is corrupt and deserved to be torn down to it's foundations. Maybe now they may have learned something, especially since the war has doubtless left so many orphans.

I guess I just can't stand to see the sort of victimization that the Cardassians suffered. Also, the US re-elected Dubya, and while that makes me perpetually angry at any Republican I meet, it doesn't mean there aren't millions of Americans who knew better. I know we're crossing over from a fictional "villain" race to a real country, and the time offset means that DS9's writers couldn't have written it as allegory. But I just like to imagine that the entire Cardassian race isn't just single-mindedly stupid and malicious. After all, Garak was a good guy. Damar wasn't so bad either. At least after the writers decided they needed him to be a martyr.

And that's what I think of Chekov and Sulu.

[Graham Kennedy]

The thing is, "The Cardassians" are not a single entity. "The Cardassians" killed on Cardassia included millions who had nothing to do with "The Cardassians" who invaded Bajor or treated orphans badly or whatever.

[Mikey]

Exactly. And we saw after the fact that the military junta which occupied Bajor was not necessarily popular with the Cardassian poulation at large.

[katefan]

Didnt WWI teach you anything? Being bast*rds to defeated enemies never ends well, were as if you imbrace them like the Marshall project you get yourself a powerful allie.

I didn't say Federation policy should be to abandon the Cardassians, just that I did not have any sympathy for them and they got what they deserved. Now that they have been utterly crushed by the Dominion and Alliance the Cardassians can now live as a subject state and ultimately create a powerful economic state that will construct superior shuttlecrafts, holodecks and replicators. Eventually Cardassian corporations will construct facilities in Federation territory, employing Federation citizens and giving Federation shipyards serious competition. Soon Starfleet will be buying Cardassian. Add to that Federation corporation using outsourced labor to Romulans (i.e. telecommunication) combined with Bajoran illegal aliens flooding across Federation borders working cheaply, I can ultimately see the downfall of the Federation.

[katefan]

I guess I just can't stand to see the sort of victimization that the Cardassians suffered. Also, the US re-elected Dubya, and while that makes me perpetually angry at any Republican I meet, it doesn't mean there aren't millions of Americans who knew better. I know we're crossing over from a fictional "villain" race to a real country, and the time offset means that DS9's writers couldn't have written it as allegory. But I just like to imagine that the entire Cardassian race isn't just single-mindedly stupid and malicious. After all, Garak was a good guy. Damar wasn't so bad either. At least after the writers decided they needed him to be a martyr.

And that's what I think of Chekov and Sulu.

First of all, the reason Bush got re-elected is the Democrats were incapable of presenting a better alternative. Kerry, career Senator? Mister Bland? It was not Bush's smear campaign that shot him down, it was his inability to convince the public that he was a viable candidate. You think it was only Republicans who voted for him? There were numerous independents that voted for Bush. And you aren't taking into account how the Republicans lost control of the Senate. That was a clear message that Bush was not doing that well, the same sort of message the people gave Clinton two years into his first term when he lost the House.

And Damar went right along with the Dominion along with Dukat, he participated in the killing of hundreds of thousands of Federation and Klingon citizens and would have gone right along with the Dominion had things still been going well for his side. I find very little admirable about him.

[Mark]

I would have liked to have learned more about the mysterious Tzincathy, and Starfleets war with them. As well as the conflict with the Tholians.

[katefan]

The thing is, "The Cardassians" are not a single entity. "The Cardassians" killed on Cardassia included millions who had nothing to do with "The Cardassians" who invaded Bajor or treated orphans badly or whatever.

We saw the same thing with Germany and Japan before WWII; as long as they were winning everything was fine, there was no reason to rock the boat. Bajoran suppression? Maquis atrocities? Eh, who cares? As long as the trains run on time.

Exactly. And we saw after the fact that the military junta which occupied Bajor was not necessarily popular with the Cardassian poulation at large.

Not unpopular enough for Joe Cardassian to stop it, I see.

[Grundig]

At the end there, we saw that there wasn't really anything the Cardassian citizens could do - even though the Dominion wa severely weakened. They actually revolted, then were completely massacred for it. The only reason the entire Cardassian population wasn't completely wiped out was because of the deus ex machina of Odo linking with the female Founder.