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sunnyside wrote:I think the thing that really gets me is that in the end we're going to leave Iraq.

Yep.

And they're going to be pretty rich with their oil.

If the country doesn't fly apart, and while the oil's still there.

But the US is still going to be taking crap for it

Yes, deservedly so given the unmitigated disaster that was 2003-2006/7.

and probably be accused of raking in the big bucks even if there aren't any US companies operating in Iraq at all.

Hardly surprising given the antics of various US companies since the invasion - that sort of bad reputation isn't doing to fade overnight.

Russia, however, may well annex South Osseta and Abkhazia and nationalize their oil pipelines.

What pipelines? IIRC, the Georgian pipelines are a lot further south than the secessionist provinces.

The main difference between the US and the others is that the US is a western nation and a global superpower. Russia and China are neither. Therefore the western media are far more likely to concentrate on the actions of the US than on Russia or China.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Russia, however, may well annex South Osseta and Abkhazia and nationalize their oil pipelines.

What pipelines? IIRC, the Georgian pipelines are a lot further south than the secessionist provinces.

It's more in Abkhazia, or yes further south depending on how far they push (with the big money coming in if they bag azerbaijan).

That's part of why I'd be more worried about annexing than just making a new country. They can continue to push out from annexed territory easier.

Captain Seafort wrote: The main difference between the US and the others is that the US is a western nation and a global superpower. Russia and China are neither. Therefore the western media are far more likely to concentrate on the actions of the US than on Russia or China.

They're getting close to superpowers. Certainly close enough as far as any neighbors are concerned. I get that the world wants to bitch about the US, but it just seems ridiculous the pass they give other countries.

sunnyside wrote:

They're getting close to superpowers. Certainly close enough as far as any neighbors are concerned. I get that the world wants to bitch about the US, but it just seems ridiculous the pass they give other countries.

The US is as open to criticism as any other, certainly people heap it on China, Russia and virtually any other one you care to name. This is the same sort of tripe you get from christians, namely the "we're persecuted because right at this moment your not bitching about muslims".

Here's a little something to think about, the US opresses it's own and sticks it's nose where it doesn't belong. By and large the rest of the world just opresses it's own, the US also claims to be the beacon of all that is good and just with the world. It should be no surprise that people call it on it's self-delusion.

Cpl Kendall wrote: The US is as open to criticism as any other, certainly people heap it on China, Russia and virtually any other one you care to name. This is the same sort of tripe you get from christians, namely the "we're persecuted because right at this moment your not bitching about muslims".

You'd have a point except that this thread starts off with Russia invading a sovereign nation, likely in order to grab land for themselves, without even so much as bothering to try seeking some kind of support in the UN or the rest of the world and the response of a number of people here was to lay into the US again.

Cpl Kendall wrote: Here's a little something to think about, the US opresses it's own and sticks it's nose where it doesn't belong. By and large the rest of the world just opresses it's own, the US also claims to be the beacon of all that is good and just with the world. It should be no surprise that people call it on it's self-delusion.

I'm not sure what you consider "opressing it's own", but whatever you mean I'm sure it pales to nothing when compared to a lot of the crap going on in the world.

I can see the beacon thing. Though I don't know how much we're claiming that these days. More we're the only ones that will do anything about anything internationally.

sunnyside wrote:and the response of a number of people here was to lay into the US again.

No matter how much other nations may or may not do things that are the equal of what the U.S. does, the international community will always amuse themselves by levelling criticism at the U.S. more than at anyone else. Inferiority complex, jealousy, or simply the ease of a larger target, I'm not sure which.

sunnyside wrote: You'd have a point except that this thread starts off with Russia invading a sovereign nation, likely in order to grab land for themselves, without even so much as bothering to try seeking some kind of support in the UN or the rest of the world and the response of a number of people here was to lay into the US again.

Do the actions of Russia in this matter some how invalidate criticism of the US?

I'm not sure what you consider "opressing it's own", but whatever you mean I'm sure it pales to nothing when compared to a lot of the crap going on in the world.

Once again: do the actions of other nations invaildate criticism of the US?

I can see the beacon thing. Though I don't know how much we're claiming that these days. More we're the only ones that will do anything about anything internationally.

Look at the public statements of your politicians, that is exactly what the US claims. They've been flogging that horse for decades.

As for "doing anything internationally", I don't recall anyone asking for you to intervene in Iraq or the various other cesspools you've been involved in. What has been asked is intervention in Darfur, but they don't have anything your nation wants (besides being a waste of time and effort).

Mikey wrote:
No matter how much other nations may or may not do things that are the equal of what the U.S. does, the international community will always amuse themselves by levelling criticism at the U.S. more than at anyone else. Inferiority complex, jealousy, or simply the ease of a larger target, I'm not sure which.

When you set yourself up as the example of all that's good and right in the world and then not live up to it, what do you expect?

None of the criticism levelled at the US invalidates other nations actions, US citizens just have an abnormal obsession with their countries image. Ever notice how a good number of foriegners don't mind if you crticise their country?

You'd have a point except that this thread starts off with Russia invading a sovereign nation, likely in order to grab land for themselves, without even so much as bothering to try seeking some kind of support in the UN or the rest of the world and the response of a number of people here was to lay into the US again.

Well lets create a list...

Invading a Sovereign Nation - US in Iraq... check

Grabbing Land - Ok your in it so your administrations cronies can make billions... and to kill a few brown people, your government seems to enjoy that rather than dealing with actual threats, who of course are devoid of Oil...

"without even so much as bothering to try seeking some kind of support in the UN or the rest of the world":

Bush: "We know they have WMDS"
IAEA: Tell us where, we will find them since thats our UN mandated job."
Bush: "STFU they have Oil to, we will go in and find them."
UN: "Well we aren't backing this."
Bush: "STFU, your irrelevant and don't matter anymore."
Generals: "Yay, we defeated Saddam, it of course helped that we sold him his weapons so we knew exactly what he had."
Bush: "Now we will show the world Iraq's WMDs."
US Appointed Chief inspector: "Test show they had nothing and haven't since the sanctions were put in place."
Bush: STFU, no one asked you, your fired."

Did I miss anything, other than that lovely blue banner...

Cpl Kendall wrote: Once again: do the actions of other nations invaildate criticism of the US?

The issue I have is that the actions of the US seem to invalidate ciriticism of the rest of the world with you.

And again nobody on these boards thinks Iraq was a good idea. Though their is support to varying degrees of the other actions the US has been involved with.

Cpl Kendall wrote: Ever notice how a good number of foriegners don't mind if you crticise their country?

I think you might if it was a constant unending tirade. Especially in the context of stuff like this.

I think a fair example of this is Mikey. He's not some kinda Bush fan, and like everyone here he didn't support the war in Iraq. But it seems he's gotten kinda sick of this too.

The problem I have with this issue and many others is how some will denounce other nations for doing what their nation has done/is in the middle of doing/is planning on doing in the near future while you seem to forget/disregard this. You didn't support Iraq, great, I mean that I'm not being sarcastic, but at the same time your Country supported it enough to put Bush back in for another four years, you might not of but your Country did.

sunnyside wrote:
The issue I have is that the actions of the US seem to invalidate ciriticism of the rest of the world with you.

I've been fairly critical of nations other than yours on this board, including my own. But don't let that stop you defending your sacred cow.

And again nobody on these boards thinks Iraq was a good idea. Though their is support to varying degrees of the other actions the US has been involved with.

There have been calls on this board for the US to finish what it started as well as varying degrees of support for MCain and what his kind represents. Besides, there doesn't have to be support on the board for Iraq to criticise Iraq.

I think you might if it was a constant unending tirade. Especially in the context of stuff like this.

BS, most of us on here are fully capable of recognising that our nations are far from perfect and are willing to take ribbing and criticism with good homur.

I think a fair example of this is Mikey. He's not some kinda Bush fan, and like everyone here he didn't support the war in Iraq. But it seems he's gotten kinda sick of this too.

The thing with Mikey is that he can usually figure out that criticism of the US is not criticism of him personally.

Yeah but Kendall you and Teaos have both insulted people on this board personally through your critism of the US. Teaos with his soldiers are baby killer comment and you with your US military sucks (which imo goes beyond friendly my branch is better than your branch, but I know its based on a misonception from your time in the military).

Whereas no one here has called Hockey Players retarded. Cause after all all of Canada are hockey players.


Mikey hit the nail on the head. US is the super power right now (though I think China should start being considered one). People are always jealous of the super powers. There's never been a super power out there that people didn't like. Rome got tons of grief, the Spanish had a whole genocide thing labeled on them falsely, England, US, Egypt, Babylon, always people want to be the top dog because they're jealous of them. The media of other countries reinforce this jealousy and so people in online communities think the US is evil.

Tiny different subject but imo the only countries with balls in the west are England, Australia, United States, Canada, Netherlands, Denmark. That's based entirely on the countries that do any fighting in NATO.

KuvahMagh wrote:but at the same time your Country supported it enough to put Bush back in for another four years, you might not of but your Country did.

I think that was more like how there might not have been support for going out when there was a possibility of an icestorm. Doesn't mean I'd want to have my wife do the driving if we wind up in one.

And obviously I release my nation is different from myself. I don't even support most of the stuff you guys go on and on about.

At any rate I would be interested in getting back on topic. If you can only talk about the US at least shift to something a bit more relevant to the situation like Kosovo.

I suppose the current situation is still fluid. If Russia is actually just trying to re-establish the status quo like they say they are it wouldn't be so bad. But I'm not sure how many people really buy that.

Monroe wrote:Yeah but Kendall you and Teaos have both insulted people on this board personally through your critism of the US. Teaos with his soldiers are baby killer comment and you with your US military sucks (which imo goes beyond friendly my branch is better than your branch, but I know its based on a misonception from your time in the military).

If the members of this board cannot seperate themselves from their nation, that is not my problem. Though I'd like to know what misconceptions you refer to about my military service.

Whereas no one here has called Hockey Players retarded. Cause after all all of Canada are hockey players.

A good number or professionalhockey players are somewhat retarded, what with the constant concussions and all. Have you ever heard Eric Lindros speak in public?

Mikey hit the nail on the head. US is the super power right now (though I think China should start being considered one). People are always jealous of the super powers. There's never been a super power out there that people didn't like. Rome got tons of grief, the Spanish had a whole genocide thing labeled on them falsely, England, US, Egypt, Babylon, always people want to be the top dog because they're jealous of them. The media of other countries reinforce this jealousy and so people in online communities think the US is evil.

Yeah it couldn't be because we actually observe the effects of US actions around the globe and come to our own conclusions. Must be all that evil foreign (and liberal media), right?

Tiny different subject but imo the only countries with balls in the west are England, Australia, United States, Canada, Netherlands, Denmark. That's based entirely on the countries that do any fighting in NATO.

Last time I checked there was no overriding requirement for nations to fight in order to have "balls". There are many kinds of actions that can have useful effects on the world stage, force is but one of them.

sunnyside wrote:

KuvahMagh wrote:but at the same time your Country supported it enough to put Bush back in for another four years, you might not of but your Country did.

I think that was more like how there might not have been support for going out when there was a possibility of an icestorm. Doesn't mean I'd want to have my wife do the driving if we wind up in one.

And obviously I release my nation is different from myself. I don't even support most of the stuff you guys go on and on about.

At any rate I would be interested in getting back on topic. If you can only talk about the US at least shift to something a bit more relevant to the situation like Kosovo.

I suppose the current situation is still fluid. If Russia is actually just trying to re-establish the status quo like they say they are it wouldn't be so bad. But I'm not sure how many people really buy that.

I'm all for "getting back on topic", from my POV we never left it we simply were discussing another conflict in a sovereign nation taken unilaterally by one side while disregarding the larger world opinion.

I don't get your ice storm thing. I was just saying that you personally may not support Bush but the Majority of your Country did so getting all cheesed off about me or others criticizing his decisions and leadership is out of place.

I also don't see how Iraq is dissimilar when put into context with the current conflict in Georgia as I've outlined above.

As to Russia's intentions, well they are slowly being backed into a corner, if you look at a Map of NATO Nations you see them pretty much blocked in, especially when you look at all the Nations talking with NATO about membership & Treaties, including Georgia itself. No doubt they want to keep the region from massing against them. I do however believe that there is some motivation for the protection of their citizens. Right or wrong they have given these people (who I will say again have no desire to be a part of Georgia) Russian citizenship, if they then refuse to help them then it cheapens their passport. Their response is a bit strong arm but this is the Russian Bear we are talking about, not the Care Bears...

They are also likely looking at a map of the world and thinking that there is no one to oppose them in a serious way, the US is tied down in Iraq/Afghanistan and who else could do much against them. It would take an Alliance, say like NATO to do the job, except that right now most NATO countries are either stretched by current operations & deployments or have no stomach for even a single causality's and refuse to allow their soldiers to do anything remotely reassembling combat, even their combat arms are so crippled by ROEs that they can't do anything (Just like a 1990s era UN Peacekeeping Mission, don't shoot until you yourself have been shot, then call in for approval from NY which will take a week to process by which point your dead and no one else can shoot back since they haven't personally been hit yet...). Sure they will complain, threaten sanctions, give them dirty looks but what will it accomplish, by the time anything can happen Russia will have achieved it goal.

Whether or not this vision is true is debatable but I wouldn't put a lot of faith in it being wrong at this point. Russia has been trying to show itself off again for a while, I doubt they will back down over this easily and by easily I mean without guaranteed, overwhelming Military Intervention.