www.ditl.org

Mikey wrote:In addition, those cultural/national differneces in Europe go back FAR longer and have much deeper roots than they do in the US. Except for the fringe groups, all those divisions in the US can ultimately be traced back to differences in enfranchisement. The issues between a Ukrainian and a Pole, for example, are ones of true racial hatred for no other reasons but its own sake.

Wait till the former Yugoslavia countries try to get in.

Cpl Kendall wrote:

ChakatBlackstar wrote:
Okay, latino I'll give you. But Africans? We got one running for president. I don't think they're doing too bad.

There is a rich, educated African running for office. There are massive numbers of poor and uneducated Africans in the US *cough*Detroit*cough*, I assume your familar with ghettos. Obama is not represenative of the average African in America, nor is Oprah or Jesse Jackson for that matter.

It's been a relativly short time since they were given all the rights of other amercans. It takes time for them to get the education they need, and money to send their kids to better schools. And it's not like we're discriminating against them anymore.

Yes we are. It's just more subtle and not official anymore. However, as I said, the racial/ethnic/cultural tension in the US generally springs from economic or social enfranchisement or disenfrachisement rather than true historically national differences - the US is simply too young to have that.

The bottom line with the EU becoming an actual governmental body is that European history has been fraught with all sorts of problems when outside powers - usually more powerful or victorious other nations - attempt to impose national boundaries or political mandates on other countries. Just as one of many examples: traditionally, ethnically, and culturally, there is no reason that the Czechs and the Slovaks would all be in the same political entity - but we had Czechoslovakia for an awfully long time. And forced but unstable political, rather than truly "national," gerrymandering is what I see ins tore if the EU becomes a truly governmental overseeing authority.

ChakatBlackstar wrote:
It's been a relativly short time since they were given all the rights of other amercans. It takes time for them to get the education they need, and money to send their kids to better schools. And it's not like we're discriminating against them anymore.

Been to the south? And how are poor and uneducated people supposed to come up with the means to better themselves and their children without some kind of social support, like subsidised education or income replacement so they can go to school? The US doesn't even have an adequete welfare system, the attitude being "if your poor it's your fault and we're not going to help you".

It's been said that America is awesome if your rich, white and christian.

That's very true. And even up to a couple of years ago, a friend of mine on business in an outlying area of Georgia encountered a small town with a city limits sign, underneath which was posted a hand-written sign that said, "No n----rs after sundown." Is that how evolved our sensibilities have become?

Mikey wrote:That's very true. And even up to a couple of years ago, a friend of mine on business in an outlying area of Georgia encountered a small town with a city limits sign, underneath which was posted a hand-written sign that said, "No n----rs after sundown." Is that how evolved our sensibilities have become?

Ha! They tell you before they lynch you now, in the past they would just drag you off in the middle of the night. Social progress!

Cpl Kendall wrote: Been to the south?

Nope. But I hear they all move really slow. A teacher of mine was down there once. Took 5 minutes to get a meal at a McDonolds that wasn't busy. Went to a meeting at the time they told him to be there. Most of them showed up as late as 5 to 10 minutes! And they have wierd accents.

The issues between a Ukrainian and a Pole, for example, are ones of true racial hatred for no other reasons but its own sake

Well that's just stupid.

ChakatBlackstar wrote:Well that's just stupid.

It's the inevitable results of them being at each other's throats for centuries, or millennia - it gets to the stage where everyone forgets what started the drama in the first place and keep fighting simply for the sake of it.

Of course it seems stupid to us - but that's just an example of how the divisions in Europe are far older and more deep-seated than those here in the States. Both World Wars and most prior European wars can trace their origins in part, at least, to those national divisions a/o the artificial gerrymandering which ignored those cultural lines.

Indeed. Divisions and racial hatred in Europe at least has some excuse, seeing as how most ocuntries were at almost constant warfare with their neighbours for centuries. I think the fact that there hasn't been a war in Europe for sixty years is pretty much a record. Wars in Europe have gone on for ridiculously long periods at a time. Hell, for three hundred and thirty five years, the Netherlands and Sicily were at a de facto state of war.
When the people from country X have been trying to kill you and your ancestors for the last Y hundred years, you're going to start disliking people simply because they happen to come from country X.

the Dutch are STILL at war with Portugal, because we never signed a peace treaty.

Really, if Europe is going to unite and will continue the present policy on conserving cultures, we might end up with a lot of factions begging to gain independence, like Kosovo, but will not even be half as able to create their own thriving economy. Hell, even my own local newspaper is whinign about a possible independency, the sole reason being a gas bubble which will be empty in 30 years.

Once again, in the state we're in, we will not become a single state by ANY means. Within months people will declare themselves independent or will riot to gain independency. The EU cannot melt the people into a single nation. It simply won't happen, no matter how much globalisation takes place.

the Dutch are STILL at war with Portugal, because we never signed a peace treaty.

Wow, I thought that ended a good while ago.

Hell, even my own local newspaper is whinign about a possible independency, the sole reason being a gas bubble which will be empty in 30 years.

If you don't mind me asking, what region are you in? I'm just curious to know where exactly is trying to gain independance.

Once again, in the state we're in, we will not become a single state by ANY means. Within months people will declare themselves independent or will riot to gain independency. The EU cannot melt the people into a single nation. It simply won't happen, no matter how much globalisation takes place.

Agreed, any attempts to unify modern Europe will just lead to bloodshed.

Captain Seafort wrote:

ChakatBlackstar wrote:Well that's just stupid.

It's the inevitable results of them being at each other's throats for centuries, or millennia - it gets to the stage where everyone forgets what started the drama in the first place and keep fighting simply for the sake of it.

Can't they all just let it go? What's the point of fighting if they don't know why they're fighting anymore?

[/quote]Can't they all just let it go? What's the point of fighting if they don't know why they're fighting anymore?[/quote]

Its a tradition by now - everyone loves a good old traditional enemy to blame things on.
I doubt that theres a single country/ state/ football team that hasn't got themselves a traditional enemy. Its the way humans bond to make our own tribe stronger by focusing our attentions on the external. Aliens would be scr*wed if they turned up - no wonder in Trek wars on earth stopped cause we had a new enemy to feel suspicious about

I plan to vote No in the upcoming referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, unless someone comes up with better arguements than it'll make EU stronger and slim fown decision making process.

Here's an experiment for you, Blackstar.

Go down to the Bible Belt, and ask a redneck there to let (for example) a Jewish person stay in their home for a week.
Chances are, he's going to tell you to get lost, quite passionately and offensively. But why? The Jewish guy did nothing to him, yet Mr. Redneck still hates him with a passion.
Now, when he gets furious at you, try suggesting that he "just let it all go". Let me know how many teeth you have left after this encounter.

In Europe, everyone has been at each other's throats for millenia. Attrocities have been commited, allies have stabbed each other in the back, nations have been brutaly conquered, people have been enslaved and tortured by people who could be seperated from them by just a river. In this enviroment, hatreds build up very quickly. These attitudes can last for a long time, even when the reason for these hatreds are long gone.

Take Ireland as an example. We've been invaded, conquered and oppressed by Britain in all it's forms for the last millenia or so. Hell, we gained our independance less than a century ago, and they still kept the northern parts of the country. People tend to get mighty pissed off at people who oppress them for centuries on end, and the Irish Republican Army becoming a terrorist group was damn well inevitable, even if the British had let us take the whole island.
Telling a member of the IRA to "just let it go" would end up with several people coming to your house at night with knives.

These hatreds and prejudices exist for a multitude of reasons, but the most common is revenge. Country X got invaded, and the population was massacred by Country Y. People in Country X now hate people from Country Y with a passion, and would love nothing better than to get revenge on them.
Now, let's say that Country X keeps on getting invaded by country Y dozens of time. Do you really expect the survivors of Country X to be reasonable? Do you really expect them to "just let it go"?
It's easy to say that from the comfort of a country that's never been devastated by another country. But when you have lived in such a country, you'll see these sort of hatreds for all the stupidest reasons.

It's stupid, yes, but it's an inevitable result of such a violent continent.