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Captain Seafort wrote:

IanKennedy wrote:Menace or not they do not deserve to be ripped apart by a pack of dogs, you call that humane?

I call it irrelevent - nothing that happens to dead bodies can be considered either humane or inhumane.

They are alive when the dogs get them, they die by being torn apart, that is inhumane.

Captain Seafort wrote:

KuvahMagh wrote:But that's not pest control, that's sport hunting. Pest Control is going after a specific one because it is a pest to your animals. Farmers are the only people I could defend hunting these as pest control. Even then it should be more of an 'if its on your land and you have a gun shoot it, if not don't bother chasing it with a pack of dogs' type deal.

It's not just farmers that have problems with them killing livestock - farming is the backbone of the country economy. Moreover, if their numbers aren't controlled, they come into towns, knocking over bins for scraps, and generally making a nuiscance of themselves. Moreover, hunting with dogs, rather than just shooting them a) provides everyone with a major social event, to the extent that the local hunt is a significant part of the economy in and of itself, and b) is far more humane. Would you rather die from a broken neck, or gangrene caused by non-fatal shotgun injuries?

For a start foxes coming into towns it nothing what so ever to do with there being large numbers of them. They've been doing it for years, there are ones that acutaly live in towns, they get called urban foxes. They've been in towns for years before the hunting ban was ever even thought of. I saw one in Liverpool in the 1980s.

As for a major social event out of tormenting animals, bear baiting used to be very popular and prosperous occupation, and yet it's not done any more. Public hangings would be obscenely profitable and yet...

One dog on it's own may kill an animal by biting it's neck, however, a pack of dogs all attacking a single small animal (relative to the dogs), such things are never so clean or simpe. I've seen film of one of these events and it was horrific, believe me the animal suffered.

IanKennedy wrote:They are alive when the dogs get them

Of course they're alive when the dogs get to them - it'd be pretty damn difficult for them to run otherwise.

they die by being torn apart, that is inhumane.

Wrong - they're killed by a broken neck. That's how dogs kill their prey. That the carcass is then ripped apart has no bearing on the matter.

For a start foxes coming into towns it nothing what so ever to do with there being large numbers of them. They've been doing it for years, there are ones that acutaly live in towns, they get called urban foxes. They've been in towns for years before the hunting ban was ever even thought of. I saw one in Liverpool in the 1980s.

The fact that foxes come into towns at all isn't unusual. The problem caused by the hunting ban is that they're far more prevelent since the ban was imposed.

As for a major social event out of tormenting animals, bear baiting used to be very popular and prosperous occupation, and yet it's not done any more. Public hangings would be obscenely profitable and yet...

The former involved cruelty to animals, and served no useful purpose besides entertainment, and the latter involved killing humans (although public executions in place of ASBOs may be worth considering).

Wrong - they're killed by a broken neck. That's how dogs kill their prey.

That is not true. I have seen hundreds of cases where packs of dogs tear live prey apart. It may be that sometimes the dogs break the foxes neck, but that is certainly not always true.

Evidence?

Give me a little time, I have to help my dad with his shed, and then find an online source (hard to connect memories to internet).
I've seen it (as in, with my eyes, not just on TV through National Geographic).
But I will comply with you request as soon as possible.

The most diagnostic characteristic of injuries caused by dogs is usually the slashing and biting of prey animals over much of their bodies.

This is from http://www.extension.org/pages/Feral_Do ... Assessment

And then there is this.

Dogs-Dogs frequently attack and kill wildlife and livestock. They usually chase their prey and attack wherever they can get a hold on the animal, most often the hindquarters, tails, ears and nose. Bite marks from dogs raking down the shoulders, sides and flanks of livestock are often mistaken for "claw marks." Their attacks usually lead to indiscriminate mutilation and they feed very little on their prey. Dogs generally do not kill the prey quickly or efficiently, but pursue and bite it repeatedly, causing other injuries from collisions with gates, fences and other objects.

From http://mdc.mo.gov/nathis/mammals/mlion/signs.htm

This is all I have for now.

Hmm. In response I have the Beeb. Note that, while both pro- and anti-hunting arguments are presented, of the four major pieces of research mentioned, only one suggests suffering on the part of the fox, and that refers specifically to the stress of being chased, rather than the dogs' method of killing.

Your sources seem to refer to wild dogs attacking livestock which, given that livestock are significantly larger than dogs, would produce significantly different results than from foxes, which are considerably smaller and lighter than hunting dogs.

Interesting.

I do agree that my sources refer to livestock (though they are referring to domestic dogs).
However, I have seen two dogs kill a rabbit, and while it may have have had a broken neck at the end, it certainly was not the cause of death. I would say cause of death was the fact that it had been ripped in two.

On the other hand, I will not argue anymore on the dogs in a fox hunt, as I have no experience with that (other than fictional TV).

That would be funny if it weren't so on-the-nose...

Brilliant! Let's put that in every ballot this Nov. 4th.

Two weeks left! I'm actually excited about the election. I remember when George Bush lost the re-election, then won it the same night.... Exciting, in a different way.

I've already voted (absentee ballot - I'll be on vaca that week.)

JudgeKing - good find. I don't know whether to lauch or cry at that.

Nice find, Judgeking.

JudgeKing, I swear you find the best political images. 8)