Phone tracking

[Tyyr]

Said individual clearly has no concept of the type of manpower it would take to accomplish what he is suggesting.

This is why the suggestions that, THE MAN, is watching us all the time completely fall apart. They don't have the manpower to do it. On an average day I generate 30 to 50 text messages, 15 to 25 phone calls, 10 to 20 e-mails, and 50 to 100 internet based communications. That's 105 to 195 discreet communications per day. I know I've had prodigious days that pushed that probably over 400. That's just one person. There are plenty of text addicts that might spout off 100+ texts a day, along with Tweets, Facebook, etc. Some people probably blow out 500 or more discreet communications per day. A lot in fact. How do you even begin to keep up with that? Much less deal with the context surrounding the messages which is often critical.

All they'd really need is a couple (hundred?) supercomputers and some software and search buzzwords.

That plus massive data storage, exabytes by the thousands, communications lines the likes of which aren't even in existence and so on. And that's just to start the sifting process. After that the hundreds of thousands of communications that take place, just within this country, that need a human touch happen. How many tens of thousands of analysts do you think they have dedicated to this process? Mind you, this is just to keep tabs on our own citizens for reasons that are usually ill defined if you can even pick them out of the cloud of pot smoke surrounding their proponents. Never mind what it would take to keep tabs on the people who are the actual threats to the country.

The buzzwords thing is even more pointless in that the kind of words you are hunting for are now day to day talk of completely harmless people. Bomb, Al-Queda, airline, terrorism, assault rifle, border security, back-scatter x-ray, ANFO, pretty much any potential buzzword you can come up with is already in the general parlance and used by people constantly. And if someone wants to avoid a buzzword detector then it's entirely possible to talk in code if you need to. You don't talk about the dirty bomb you're going to set off down town. You ask if grandma's laundry has been delivered.

And in the end there's the fact that it's utterly pointless to do all this since 99.9% of all American's lives are incredibly boring and uninteresting and keeping tabs on them is a total waste of time.

[IanKennedy]

They shouldn't be allowed to use it at all without a person's express permission.

Why not with a search warrant?

Great idea, except that over here, they issue those like Halloween candy.

"Can I have a search warrant?"

"Sure, why not?"

"Aren't you going to review the case first?"

"Why bother?"

Besides, the Patriot Act makes warrants almost unneeded. They don't even need to prove probable cause in some cases now to search your property.

I didn't suggest what about without a search warrant. If you can't keep control of your government they I don't think you need to worry about whether they should or shouldn't be able to track a mobile, if issue is mute. They can and will no matter what the law is. But, in a sensible place I can't see a reason why is shouldn't be possible with a search warrant.

[Tsukiyumi]

*snip Tyyr*

Yes, very interesting hypothesis, Tyyr. Then there's reality.

Government Monitoring About 200 Million Americans' Calls

"We are not mining or trolling through the personal lives of innocent Americans."

About 200 million people have had their call records monitored, Cauley said.

So I guess there are only 100 million "innocent Americans".

Whistle-Blower Outs NSA Spy Room

NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls

You'll notice that these aren't coming from "Loonyconspiracy.com", or some other such source.

NOVA - The Spy Factory

Anyone who hasn't already convinced themselves that everything's "okay", watch that documentary.

[Tyyr]

You'll also notice that they aren't listening in on your phone calls and they aren't tracking everything you say. The phone companies are turning over their records to the NSA (the NSA isn't listening in on the conversations themselves but is getting the providers to voluntarily turn over the data) who is then data mining who is calling whom. In essence the "To:" and "From:" fields in a phone call.

[Tsukiyumi]

You'll also notice that they aren't listening in on your phone calls and they aren't tracking everything you say. The phone companies are turning over their records to the NSA (the NSA isn't listening in on the conversations themselves but is getting the providers to voluntarily turn over the data) who is then data mining who is calling whom. In essence the "To:" and "From:" fields in a phone call.

Within the first two minutes of that documentary, a woman who worked in one of those switching centers talks about how uncomfortable it made her to listen in on private conversations of American citizens. Try again.

[Tyyr]

I have never claimed that they don't listen in on anyone. I'm saying there is no possible way they are listening in on everything we do.

[Tsukiyumi]

I have never claimed that they don't listen in on anyone. I'm saying there is no possible way they are listening in on everything we do.

Who cares if they listen to everything? They shouldn't be listening to anything without a warrant. It's unconstitutional.

And if someone wants to avoid a buzzword detector then it's entirely possible to talk in code if you need to. You don't talk about the dirty bomb you're going to set off down town. You ask if grandma's laundry has been delivered.

This here makes the whole thing even more pointless for preventing terrorism, and in the end, they're just using fear to gain access to people's private conversations.

And no one cares.

"He who would trade essential liberties for a measure of temporary security deserves neither liberty nor security." - Ben Franklin

[Tyyr]

Who cares if they listen to everything? They shouldn't be listening to anything without a warrant. It's unconstitutional.

Awesome, what the fuck ever. I have never spoken about the constitutionality of the practice at all, just how completely implausible it is that the government could be tapping in over every conversation all the time as a matter of course.

And no one cares.

A lot of people care, but so long as our current governmental system is in place it's highly unlikely anyone will do anything about it. Given that it's easy to paint someone against security as a terrorist sympathizer or just "soft of security," and that that issue is highly unlikely to have the impact on your re-election chances as whatever the most recent hot topic is politicians have little reason to bother with it.

[Tsukiyumi]

Awesome, what the fuck ever. I have never spoken about the constitutionality of the practice at all, just how completely implausible it is that the government could be tapping in over every conversation all the time as a matter of course.

Awesome indeed. I never said that they were listening to every conversation all the time. The fact that they can do it, without warrant, means that they could just turn on your GPS and track your movements without warrant as well, which was the point of this discussion. In fact...

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/06/ ... 308468600/

A lot of people care, but so long as our current governmental system is in place it's highly unlikely anyone will do anything about it. Given that it's easy to paint someone against security as a terrorist sympathizer or just "soft of security," and that that issue is highly unlikely to have the impact on your re-election chances as whatever the most recent hot topic is politicians have little reason to bother with it.

You are certainly dead on about that.

[Mikey]

You'll also notice that they aren't listening in on your phone calls and they aren't tracking everything you say. The phone companies are turning over their records to the NSA (the NSA isn't listening in on the conversations themselves but is getting the providers to voluntarily turn over the data) who is then data mining who is calling whom. In essence the "To:" and "From:" fields in a phone call.

Within the first two minutes of that documentary, a woman who worked in one of those switching centers talks about how uncomfortable it made her to listen in on private conversations of American citizens. Try again.

And in the USA Today article you cited, it was stated expressly that the NSA isn't listening to calls but rather - as Tyyr reiterated - watching the traffic patterns. Anything the government does can be intentionally interpreted by Mr. Stone &co. to be an evil essay into assaulting individual rights. If we have to try this hard to do so, though, maybe we're just being a wee bit paranoid. The absolutely pragmatic fact of the matter is this - I have a cell phone. I use it a lot, for talking, texting, posting to social nets, whatever. No black helicopters have ever landed on my lawn; nobody's ever come to accost me for information linking me to cattle mutilations or the Garfield assassination or the moon-landing hoax; nobody's even mentioned to me the time I asked my compadre about some off-the-shelf Vicadins; etc., etc.

The bottom line is that I prefer to live my life not looking over my shoulder or hating my government so much that I should properly move.

[Tsukiyumi]

I think you're missing my point, my friend. I'm not talking about conspiracies, just stated information. No infringement on our civil liberties should be tolerated, and the only thing stopping reform is ignorance and fear.

[Mikey]

Well, there we are. We live in a nation whose government is emplaced (and therefore, directed in a way) by public mandate. If the greater amount of the public decides for whatever reason that such things do not merit (via ignorance of them, knowledge of their nonexistence, or whatever) said public mandate to move against them, then so it shall be.

[IanKennedy]

Well, there we are. We live in a nation whose government is emplaced (and therefore, directed in a way) by public mandate. If the greater amount of the public decides for whatever reason that such things do not merit (via ignorance of them, knowledge of their nonexistence, or whatever) said public mandate to move against them, then so it shall be.

Sure, great in theory, but then there are things like the Patriot act... even it's name is BS.

[Mikey]

Actually, the Patriot Act is an excellent example of what I mentioned. I didn't say that the results of republican democracy were always positive ones; but they are the results. If the mandate from my nation - and trust me, it is a mandate whether it be by direct referendum, political pressure, or job insecurity for those in office - allows such things to be done, then so it is.

[IanKennedy]

Actually, the Patriot Act is an excellent example of what I mentioned. I didn't say that the results of republican democracy were always positive ones; but they are the results. If the mandate from my nation - and trust me, it is a mandate whether it be by direct referendum, political pressure, or job insecurity for those in office - allows such things to be done, then so it is.

I wouldn't say that the patriot act is there by popular request. I've never seen anything other that scorn for it.