Pastor Arrested For Protesting Patriotism IMO

[Tsukiyumi]

No, because you're not protesting the unit or the country to which it serves.

By protesting their mascot, he's disrespecting them, IMO.

So, if someone's religion found the color red offensive, it wouldn't be unpatriotic for them to protest the flag?

If they believe that it is wrong to represent blood and war through the flag then it is their duty as patriotic citizens to protest as such so long as they do not cause harm to others.

And, I believe that would it would be unpatriotic for people to protest the sacrifice of the ones who gave their blood in war to protect the right to protest. I never said they shouldn't be allowed to protest.

I already gave the Apollo Program example;

Yes, and it was meaningless for this thread.

How so? If someone takes issue with something for purely religious reasons, they're at best misguided. IMO.

what about people who consider the eagle sacred to their religion? I think it would be unpatriotic for them to protest the Great Seal.

And what if they aren't from this country? What if they have had the eagle as a sacred symbol for longer then the United States has used the Great Seal? How is it that you talk of someone being patriotic while at the same time you ignore the Bill of Rights?

List where I've spoken against the Bill Of Rights in this thread. Or ever, really. Come on, man. I already said it's my opinion. Which is my right.

Again, it's my opinion.

Which is good and fine though not something that should be used in a thread title or when you attempt to defend you opinion by stepping on a a Citizen's Rights.

Misdirection.

I never claimed he should not have been allowed to protest. I only said I think he's an ass for doing so without talking to some folks about it first. He jumped to conclusions, and reacted, rather than responding.

[Lighthawk]

It's possible to protest a symbol without being against what it stands for. Based on the story, he seems against the use of demon symbolism, not against the school, or the air unit that used the symbol, or america.

If there was an organization that fed the homeless and sheltered orphans and fixed the national debt, but their symbol was the devil raping jesus, I think you'd still get people complaining. I know I'm going to extremes here, but I'm hoping it makes things clearer. You're making a big assumption of his motives when the simplest explanation is that he just doesn't like demons.

[Captain Seafort]

By protesting their mascot, he's disrespecting them, IMO.

He's doing nothing of the sort - he's objecting to the mascot, not the unit, and the protest isn't even against the unit itself, but a high school.

If said unit mascot included the phrase "fuck the sand niggers" or similar, would you consider the protests it would garner "unpatriotic"?

He jumped to conclusions, and reacted, rather than responding.

He doesn't like the mascot. He is therefore protesting about the mascot. It's a ridiculously trivial thing to complain about, but there's nothing objectionable about it.

[Mikey]

Tsu, your examples are all skewed to spin toward your opinion.

So, it's not unpatriotic to criticize a unit's mascot, as long as that's not the reason you're protesting it?

This doesn't speak to what the guy was doing. He was protesting a high school's mascot. The fact that the fighter group used the same name is purely coincidental and - even more important for our purposes - tangential.

So, if someone's religion found the color red offensive, it wouldn't be unpatriotic for them to protest the flag?

Sure it would. However, this likewise has nothing to do with this conversation. More to the point would be the fact that if someone's religion found the color red offensive, it wouldn't be unpatriotic for them to protest the color red in general.

[Tsukiyumi]

I get the feeling that I didn't really clarify this properly.

I never said I thought his motives were to malign the 7th Fighter Squadron, merely that his actions did, IMO; the school picked that mascot because it belonged to the 7th. Therefore, it wasn't coincidental, and is certainly relevant to me.

By protesting their mascot, he's disrespecting them, IMO.

If said unit mascot included the phrase "f**k the sand niggers" or similar, would you consider the protests it would garner "unpatriotic"?

As I've suggested to you, this is a bit of a red herring, as this situation simply wouldn't arise today.

He jumped to conclusions, and reacted, rather than responding.

He doesn't like the mascot. He is therefore protesting about the mascot. It's a ridiculously trivial thing to complain about, but there's nothing objectionable about it.

It's objectionable to me, which is why I created this thread in the first place.

Tsu, your examples are all skewed to spin toward your opinion.

I know. I'm arguing on the side of my opinion. The facts of the case are simple: guy had no protest permit, guy goes to jail.

So, it's not unpatriotic to criticize a unit's mascot, as long as that's not the reason you're protesting it?

This doesn't speak to what the guy was doing. He was protesting a high school's mascot. The fact that the fighter group used the same name is purely coincidental and - even more important for our purposes - tangential.

As I said above, I disagree. It was not coincidental; the school picked that particular mascot for a reason. His ignorance of its history doesn't excuse his disrespect.

So, if someone's religion found the color red offensive, it wouldn't be unpatriotic for them to protest the flag?

Sure it would. However, this likewise has nothing to do with this conversation. More to the point would be the fact that if someone's religion found the color red offensive, it wouldn't be unpatriotic for them to protest the color red in general.

The flag in particular is a direct symbol of the country; protesting against it is protesting against it's ideals. Want to protest red shirts, or red cars, fine. Protest against the flag, and MY OPINION is that it's unpatriotic.

[Deepcrush]

Its like the fucking IQ of the forum has just bled out of people lately. A lynching would have more then talking to half of these shits right now.

[Mikey]

The facts of the case are simple: guy had no protest permit, guy goes to jail.

Yeah, but nobody's arguing that.

the school picked that particular mascot for a reason.

Did I miss that part of the article? If not, do you have some other source for the school's founders' intentions?

His ignorance of its history doesn't excuse his disrespect.

It wouldn't, if he were protesting the mascot of the fighter group. He wasn't so that's a moot point.

The flag in particular is a direct symbol of the country; protesting against it is protesting against it's ideals. Want to protest red shirts, or red cars, fine. Protest against the flag, and MY OPINION is that it's unpatriotic.

Yes, but the example about the group which is offended by the color red is only analagous to this story if we amend it the way I did, i.e. the group protests the color, not the flag.

[Captain Seafort]

I never said I thought his motives were to malign the 7th Fighter Squadron, merely that his actions did, IMO; the school picked that mascot because it belonged to the 7th. Therefore, it wasn't coincidental, and is certainly relevant to me.

Bully for you. It doesn't change the fact that he was objecting to the mascot. Not the school and not the squadron. It's not as if he's insulted their mothers or had a go at the organisations themselves.

As I've suggested to you, this is a bit of a red herring, as this situation simply wouldn't arise today.

Kindly answer the question.

It's objectionable to me, which is why I created this thread in the first place.

He's complaining about a picture. How on Earth does this translate to an attack on the squadron, or "unpatriotic"?

I know. I'm arguing on the side of my opinion. The facts of the case are simple: guy had no protest permit, guy goes to jail.

Fair enough, but that's got nothing to do with the subject of the protest that you're getting so wound up about.

As I said above, I disagree. It was not coincidental; the school picked that particular mascot for a reason. His ignorance of its history doesn't excuse his disrespect.

What disrespect? He didn't have a word of objection to either the school or the squadron - just the picture.

The flag in particular is a direct symbol of the country; protesting against it is protesting against it's ideals. Want to protest red shirts, or red cars, fine. Protest against the flag, and MY OPINION is that it's unpatriotic.

Don't be absurd - you could just as easily say the same thing about a country's national anthem, and stating that yours sets everyone's teeth on edge and ours is a dirge is a very long way from objecting to the ideals of the US or UK.

[Tsukiyumi]

Did I miss that part of the article? If not, do you have some other source for the school's founders' intentions?

School officials say the mascot honors a World War II fighter squadron nicknamed the "Screamin' Demons."

His ignorance of its history doesn't excuse his disrespect.

It wouldn't, if he were protesting the mascot of the fighter group. He wasn't so that's a moot point.

If I protested the imagery of the crucifix, I doubt most Christians wouldn't associate my protest with Christ or Christianity. Even assuming I didn't know of the link.

The flag in particular is a direct symbol of the country; protesting against it is protesting against it's ideals. Want to protest red shirts, or red cars, fine. Protest against the flag, and MY OPINION is that it's unpatriotic.

Yes, but the example about the group which is offended by the color red is only analagous to this story if we amend it the way I did, i.e. the group protests the color, not the flag.

No, I imagine this fellow protests the use of demonic imagery in any form. Though, that is certainly assumption. Should we really assume he only objects in this one particular case?

[Tsukiyumi]

I never said I thought his motives were to malign the 7th Fighter Squadron, merely that his actions did, IMO; the school picked that mascot because it belonged to the 7th. Therefore, it wasn't coincidental, and is certainly relevant to me.

Bully for you. It doesn't change the fact that he was objecting to the mascot. Not the school and not the squadron. It's not as if he's insulted their mothers or had a go at the organisations themselves.

He was objecting to the school's use of the mascot. I never said he objected to the school. The mascot belongs to the squadron, therefore objecting to its use is the same as giving them the finger, IMO. Do I have to state that this is my opinion more frequently, or should I start putting it in extra large font?

As I've suggested to you, this is a bit of a red herring, as this situation simply wouldn't arise today.

Kindly answer the question.

It's a purely fantastical question. What if the squadron's motto was "We pwned the UK!"? It won't happen. Talk about tangential; we're discussing symbolism, not slogans.

It's objectionable to me, which is why I created this thread in the first place.

He's complaining about a picture. How on Earth does this translate to an attack on the squadron, or "unpatriotic"?

Because the imagery in question is representative of the squadron in question.

I know. I'm arguing on the side of my opinion. The facts of the case are simple: guy had no protest permit, guy goes to jail.

Fair enough, but that's got nothing to do with the subject of the protest that you're getting so wound up about.

And that would be why I didn't bring that up originally.

As I said above, I disagree. It was not coincidental; the school picked that particular mascot for a reason. His ignorance of its history doesn't excuse his disrespect.

What disrespect? He didn't have a word of objection to either the school or the squadron - just the picture.

The picture represents the school's team (therefore the school), and the squadron.

The flag in particular is a direct symbol of the country; protesting against it is protesting against it's ideals. Want to protest red shirts, or red cars, fine. Protest against the flag, and MY OPINION is that it's unpatriotic.

Don't be absurd - you could just as easily say the same thing about a country's national anthem, and stating that yours sets everyone's teeth on edge and ours is a dirge is a very long way from objecting to the ideals of the US or UK.

Saying you don't like the flag (for aesthetic reasons, or whatever), is different than protesting the flag.

[stitch626]

If I protested the imagery of the crucifix, I doubt most Christians wouldn't associate my protest with Christ or Christianity. Even assuming I didn't know of the link.

Actually, I'd think you were protesting the ancient Egyptian religion (the source of the symbol) and/or sex worship. Or protesting a modification to the Egyptian glyph the Ankh.

[Tsukiyumi]

If I protested the imagery of the crucifix, I doubt most Christians wouldn't associate my protest with Christ or Christianity. Even assuming I didn't know of the link.

Actually, I'd think you were protesting the ancient Egyptian religion (the source of the symbol) and/or sex worship. Or protesting a modification to the Egyptian glyph the Ankh.

Nice.

I should've said "Average Christian". I was in a hurry.

[Captain Seafort]

He was objecting to the school's use of the mascot. I never said he objected to the school. The mascot belongs to the squadron, therefore objecting to its use is the same as giving them the finger, IMO. Do I have to state that this is my opinion more frequently, or should I start putting it in extra large font?

It's clear that it's your opinion. What's not clear is where this opinion had come from

It's a purely fantastical question. What if the squadron's motto was "We pwned the UK!"? It won't happen. Talk about tangential; we're discussing symbolism, not slogans.

You've stated that objecting to the picture is the same as "giving [the unit] the finger". I'm asking whether you would still hold this view if the picture had "fuck the sand niggers" on it. Yes, it's hypothetical, but it's far from tangential.

Because the imagery in question is representative of the squadron in question.

Again, so what? He's complaining about the picture, not the unit. Is the US Air Force made up of a bunch of five-year-olds that can't survive someone saying bad things about their finger paintings?

Saying you don't like the flag (for aesthetic reasons, or whatever), is different than protesting the flag.

How about protesting about inflicting that caterwauling on my ears? It hurts - get rid of it.

[Deepcrush]

Is the US Air Force made up of a bunch of five-year-olds that can't survive someone saying bad things about their finger paintings?

Yes, yes they are.

[Tsukiyumi]

It's clear that it's your opinion. What's not clear is where this opinion had come from

My respect for my countrymen who are able to fight.

It's a purely fantastical question. What if the squadron's motto was "We pwned the UK!"? It won't happen. Talk about tangential; we're discussing symbolism, not slogans.

You've stated that objecting to the picture is the same as "giving [the unit] the finger". I'm asking whether you would still hold this view if the picture had "f**k the sand niggers" on it. Yes, it's hypothetical, but it's far from tangential.

It's tangential because the subject is the imagery. There is no slogan mentioned.

Because the imagery in question is representative of the squadron in question.

Again, so what? He's complaining about the picture, not the unit. Is the US Air Force made up of a bunch of five-year-olds that can't survive someone saying bad things about their finger paintings?

Okay, Mr. Masters in Military History... What year did the United States Air Force come into existence? I don't believe the weenieness of the current Care Force has any bearing on the sacrifices and achievements of this particular squadron.

Saying you don't like the flag (for aesthetic reasons, or whatever), is different than protesting the flag.

How about protesting about inflicting that caterwauling on my ears? It hurts - get rid of it.

I prefer the Russian Anthem to yours, personally.