Switzerland Will Not Extradite Polanski

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Re: Switzerland Will Not Extradite Polanski

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Deepcrush wrote:A, not my paperwork.
Your country's paperwork
B, I doubt the paperwork was the issue.
Yes it was. Read the thread.
C, he admitted committing the crime then pleaded guilty to avoid a life sentence... so the French and now Swiss let him go.
The French wouldn't extradite him under any circumstances, because he's one of their citizens, and the Swiss won't extradite him because the paperwork doesn't add up, and the paperwork they have got indicates that any sentencing would be a formality because he'd be sentenced to time served.
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Re: Switzerland Will Not Extradite Polanski

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BigJKU316 wrote:They are certainly within their right to not extradite according to their own laws but this portrayl of the USDOJ submitting something written on a napkin is getting a bit absurd.
Kindly point out where anyone's said anything of the sort.
I happen to think that on things like murder and rape it should be pretty clear cut. The Swiss don't agree and that is their right.
What's rape or murder got to do with Polanski's case? Regardless of what he actually did, the only crime he's guilty of is sex with an underage girl, and that's what the extradition argument had been about.
But there is also nothing that can do really to stop the US from say grabbing the guy in the middle of the night and having him windup in front of a judge in LA within a few days either.
Other than the fact that the entire civilised world would go ballistic, and Polanski is nowhere near important enough for the US to risk the opprobrium such an act would produce.
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Re: Switzerland Will Not Extradite Polanski

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Captain Seafort wrote:What's rape or murder got to do with Polanski's case? Regardless of what he actually did, the only crime he's guilty of is sex with an underage girl, and that's what the extradition argument had been about.
Just stating, that is technically rape in America.
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Re: Switzerland Will Not Extradite Polanski

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Nickswitz wrote:Just stating, that is technically rape in America.
It's the same crime, regardless of what it gets called, and it's a lesser offence than rape or paedophilia.
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Re: Switzerland Will Not Extradite Polanski

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Captain Seafort wrote:Yes it was. Read the thread.
I meant that in jest as it sounds more like a Swiss excuse then anything to do with law or justice.
Captain Seafort wrote:The French wouldn't extradite him under any circumstances, because he's one of their citizens, and the Swiss won't extradite him because the paperwork doesn't add up, and the paperwork they have got indicates that any sentencing would be a formality because he'd be sentenced to time served.
So then it is an excuse, thought so.

Nice to see the Brits are pro-rape on this forum.
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Re: Switzerland Will Not Extradite Polanski

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Deepcrush wrote:
IanKennedy wrote:
Deepcrush wrote:He broke the law, he should stand trial then go to prison for it. Its really simple. Maybe the victim is over it and maybe he's become a better man since then. Neither of those things matter in the end. The point of justice can only be true if its enforced on all. Time, emotions and cost aren't important, only the end result is.

Though on the emotion side of things, I say we just shoot him.
Then get your paperwork in order next time. If you had then you would have had him.
A, not my paperwork. B, I doubt the paperwork was the issue. C, he admitted committing the crime then pleaded guilty to avoid a life sentence... so the French and now Swiss let him go.
When you say he "admitted" the crime....

His version of events is that they offered him a plea bargain in which the prosecution would recommend a 41 day sentence - his time already served - in return for a guilty plea. The fact that he pleaded guilty under those circumstances does not mean that actually did it. It simply means that he thought that he'd be able to put it behind him.

According to him, the judge then said that he would ignore that recommendation and impose whatever sentence he liked. Thus Polanski ran, having had his deal effectively skewered.

And that's what the Swiss asked for, as I understand it. They wanted to know what, exactly the plea bargain arrangement was because if it amounted to an offer of time served then there's little point in extraditing him. The US refused to say, which implies that it was indeed as Polanski claimed. And since the extradition treaty says the Swiss can ask for whatever details they want, then that refusal scuppers the extradition.

If the US isn't prepared to hand over the required paperwork, then they can hardly scream about them not extraditing him. And if you think that extradition process is flawed... well the US signed up to it in the first place, so who is really to blame if it's a bad process?
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Re: Switzerland Will Not Extradite Polanski

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Seafort - it isn't a lesser crime - he didn't have consensual sex with a thirteen-year-old-girl, he drugged her and raped her.

And to GK in particular and others who have show a like mind: I must have something wrong with my PC or inter-web connection, because it seems like you guys believe the letter of the law is more important than justice (you may continue calling it "revenge" if you like to keep portraying pro-extradition folks with the paintbrush of intimation) for a man who raped a little girl.

Let me restate something that a lot of people seem to have overlooked: Roman Polanski raped a little girl and then subsequently went fugitive from the law.

So yes - the French have the excuse of their non-extradition law. The Swiss have the excuse of faulty paperwork. Here's my questions: why would either of those nations look for excuses or loopholes to protect and harbor the monster who did such a thing; and how could any human think that the letter of the law regarding extradition-request paperwork deserves more consideration than bringing a man to face the law who has done such a thing?
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Re: Switzerland Will Not Extradite Polanski

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Mikey wrote:Seafort - it isn't a lesser crime - he didn't have consensual sex with a thirteen-year-old-girl, he drugged her and raped her.

Let me restate something that a lot of people seem to have overlooked: Roman Polanski raped a little girl and then subsequently went fugitive from the law.
For the purposes of extradition, as I've already stated, what he did is irrelevant - it's what 's he guilty of that matters, and the only crime he's guilty of is that of sex with an underage girl.
it seems like you guys believe the letter of the law is more important than justice (you may continue calling it "revenge" if you like to keep portraying pro-extradition folks with the paintbrush of intimation) for a man who raped a little girl.

Here's my questions: why would either of those nations look for excuses or loopholes to protect and harbor the monster who did such a thing; and how could any human think that the letter of the law regarding extradition-request paperwork deserves more consideration than bringing a man to face the law who has done such a thing?
What would your solution be? To declare that because what he did makes your skin crawl (understandably so, especially as you're a parent) the rules should be thrown out the window? If so then you might as well abandon the whole concept of equality before the law. Said equality means that the same procedures must be followed in all circumstances, not just when you feel like it.
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Re: Switzerland Will Not Extradite Polanski

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Captain Seafort wrote:What would your solution be? To declare that because what he did makes your skin crawl (understandably so, especially as you're a parent) the rules should be thrown out the window? If so then you might as well abandon the whole concept of equality before the law. Said equality means that the same procedures must be followed in all circumstances, not just when you feel like it.
TBH, I did make a comment about being a parent - but in actuality, it should affect any true human being the same way.

#1 - I'm not talking about a solution. I'm talking about how disgusting it is that two different nations are opposed to justice being served because the guilty party is a celebrity, and using excuses to protect him for that reason.

#2 - It disgusts me as well when guilty parties are let off on tehcnicalities - faulty Miranda rights, etc. However, our world is run by humans. That means our ways are imperfect, as we are just fallible naked apes. It also means that we are not inextricably bound to some heuristic, and we have the ability to use our brains. If a guilty person is arrested and his Miranda rights are read to him inexactly by rote - but in a way in which the rights were clearly expressed and understandable - then I think a judge should use his human intellect and disallow a mistrial. In the same way, I think France and (even moreso) Switzerland should be able to avail themselves of human faculties and think, "We have a self-professed guilty party and fugitive here... maybe we can ignore the miswording on the requisition in the interest of doing the right thing." That's my solution.
Captain Seafort wrote:the only crime he's guilty of is that of sex with an underage girl.
That's rape.
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Re: Switzerland Will Not Extradite Polanski

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Mikey wrote:TBH, I did make a comment about being a parent - but in actuality, it should affect any true human being the same way.
Hence why I said "especially" rather than "solely".
#1 - I'm not talking about a solution. I'm talking about how disgusting it is that two different nations are opposed to justice being served because the guilty party is a celebrity, and using excuses to protect him for that reason.
This is the umpteenth time you've made the accusation that the Swiss and French are refusing to extradite Polanski solely because he's a celebrity. Please provide some evidence to back it up.
#2 - It disgusts me as well when guilty parties are let off on tehcnicalities - faulty Miranda rights, etc. However, our world is run by humans. That means our ways are imperfect, as we are just fallible naked apes. It also means that we are not inextricably bound to some heuristic, and we have the ability to use our brains. If a guilty person is arrested and his Miranda rights are read to him inexactly by rote - but in a way in which the rights were clearly expressed and understandable - then I think a judge should use his human intellect and disallow a mistrial. In the same way, I think France and (even moreso) Switzerland should be able to avail themselves of human faculties and think, "We have a self-professed guilty party and fugitive here... maybe we can ignore the miswording on the requisition in the interest of doing the right thing." That's my solution.
It's precisely because humans are fallible that following procedure to the letter is so important, especially on emotive subjects. If we followed your approach, and ignored procedures simply because we didn't like the subject, where do you finish? Once it becomes subjective you open up the treatment of a huge range of crimes and procedural failures to the personal preference of whoever's desk it lands on and what sort of mood they're in when it lands on their desk. Two identical cases would be dealt with in vastly different ways. How is that justice? Much better to say "these are the requirements, and if they aren't met then tough shit".
That's rape.
No, it isn't. It's a crime, certainly, but one that can vary hugely from the huge difference in age and status in this example to a couple of teenagers. In the latter example it's worth no more than a rap over the knuckles, while the former comes close to rape and should be seriously looked at to see what exactly happened. Nonetheless, consensual sex remains consensual sex, which limits the harm done to some degree even when one of the parties is not considered legally competent to do so.

In this case, given that Polanski did rape the girl, he should have had the hammer dropped on him, but he didn't - he was convicted of a lesser offence, and that's the offence that was on the extradition request. If you want to have a rant at someone for the fact that he's free, have a go at those responsible - the prosecution who decided to drop the rape charge, the judge who was more interested posturing than doing his job properly, and whatever idiot decided to grant Polanski bail after he was found guilty. Don't complain about those who did do their jobs properly.
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Re: Switzerland Will Not Extradite Polanski

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Mikey wrote:And to GK in particular and others who have show a like mind: I must have something wrong with my PC or inter-web connection, because it seems like you guys believe the letter of the law is more important than justice (you may continue calling it "revenge" if you like to keep portraying pro-extradition folks with the paintbrush of intimation) for a man who raped a little girl.
Actually, that's not what I said.

What I actually said was that if you are interested purely in the letter of the law, then you must be of the opinion that Polanski should not be extradited to the US, as the US has quite clearly failed to meet the extradition criteria.

IF, however, your interest in in justice, then stop telling me that things such as the victim's opinion or the plea bargain dangled in front of Polanski are "immaterial". If we are talking about justice here, then EVERYTHING becomes material. If we are talking about justice, then I ask what good it does to drag this whole thing up when even the victim says she wants it left in the past and forgotten? If we are talking about justice then I ask why a crime that the prosecutors thought was worth a plea bargain and a 41 day sentence is now, apparently, so much more serious that we should disregard the letter of the law?
Let me restate something that a lot of people seem to have overlooked: Roman Polanski raped a little girl and then subsequently went fugitive from the law.
You claim he raped her; I don't know. He certainly never got tried and convicted to it in any court of law. And he went fugitive from the law because the law, at least in his view, cheated and lied to him.
So yes - the French have the excuse of their non-extradition law. The Swiss have the excuse of faulty paperwork.
Tell you what; I won't say "revenge" and more, and you don't say "excuse" any more.
Here's my questions: why would either of those nations look for excuses or loopholes to protect and harbor the monster who did such a thing; and how could any human think that the letter of the law regarding extradition-request paperwork deserves more consideration than bringing a man to face the law who has done such a thing?
Dude, implementing the exact letter of the law is what courts DO. It's their entire job description, and the only reason they even exist.

I'm reminded of a famous example where a man was faced with a verdict he didn't like in a British court. As the judge rose the man yelled "But your honour, I thought this was a court of justice!" The judge shot a withering look at him and said "Then you were very much mistaken, sir. This is a court of LAW."

Courts in every civilized country in the world, including the US, put the letter of the law above notions of justice day in, day out, as a matter of absolute routine. Jesus, I remember the time not so long ago when the US was routinely finding so called "excuses" not to extradite terrorist suspects to the UK, back when the US supported terrorism against my country. Remember that?
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Re: Switzerland Will Not Extradite Polanski

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Okay, so in England, drugging a 13yr old, fucking her in front of your friends and then walking out... isn't rape. So what counts as rape in your country?
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Re: Switzerland Will Not Extradite Polanski

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Deepcrush wrote:Okay, so in England, drugging a 13yr old, f***ing her in front of your friends and then walking out... isn't rape. So what counts as rape in your country?
Convict him of doing that in a court of law, and we can talk.
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Re: Switzerland Will Not Extradite Polanski

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GrahamKennedy wrote:
Deepcrush wrote:Okay, so in England, drugging a 13yr old, f***ing her in front of your friends and then walking out... isn't rape. So what counts as rape in your country?
Convict him of doing that in a court of law, and we can talk.
We did that, he even admitted doing that. Though the talk with your kind isn't a concern. The brits on here all seem very happy with sucking up to the pro-rapist party.
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Re: Switzerland Will Not Extradite Polanski

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Deepcrush wrote:We did that, he even admitted doing that.
You did fuck all. Quit trying to shift the blame for your own incompetence onto the Swiss and French
The brits on here all seem very happy with sucking up to the pro-rapist party.
I know that balanced extradition treaties and the rule of law are things the US doesn't understand, but I'd appreciate it if you at least made an effort.
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