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Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:19 pm
by Deepcrush
True, but that wasn't what i was going for. Luck was the starting point, but it was still an advantage. And a small one at that. Luck, skill and drive put the US in the lead and cost the Japanese a number of carriers that they couldn't replace quickly enough. What Yamamoto had hoped to do to the US and pearl harbor ended up happening to him at midway.
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:28 pm
by Granitehewer
Deepcrush wrote: What Yamamoto had hoped to do to the US at pearl harbor ended up happening to him at midway.
That was like a Jerry Springer Final Thought lol
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:34 pm
by Deepcrush
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:38 pm
by RK_Striker_JK_5
Monroe wrote:Problem in Wars right now is a debate between the authors of the EU. It comes down to what the term 'unit' means. Some authors say it means one, some say it means 5,000. Personally I like the larger numbers, its more realistic.
Zahn, who's book where the 25k is said is a minimalist. Come on now, 300 Dreadnaughts making any difference in a galactic fleet? Minimalists are also to blame for Coruscant having like 100 billion people on it. It should have least several trillion (which is the population of some other city sized planets).
This fight between minimalists and realistic authors is starting to make some ugly contradictions in the EU. The amount of battle droids for example.
I'd like to think that 25k Imperial Star Destroyers means 25k Imperial II Star Destroyers since they were the newest model. 90k normal ones works, 200k Victory, 10k Star Battleships, 100 Super Star Destroyers and so on. Now that would be nice.
it was 'explained' that most imperial ships had been secretly siphoned off to the Deep Core for the Resurrected Emperor's fleet, while the New Republic's forces were always sorta playing catchup with the imps. Most of their big guns were either captured star destroyers or converted luxury liners at that point, IIRC.
So 200 dreadnaughts would've made a difference, especially with someone of Thrawn's mental acumen.
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:45 pm
by Deepcrush
The New Republic's biggest fault was in that when the Emperor died, they let down their guard. They told themselves that once he was gone that the old days would come back. Which was almost ST writers kind of stupid. Though in the SW books they explained it instead of leaving it out there and trying to run away very fast. lol.
The people of the New Republic stopped rallying and started trying to relax when 99.9% of the Imp fleet was still intact. They should have started openly recruiting for war and taken advantage of all of the shipyards and factorys that fell away for Imp hands right after Endor. Instead they waited and many of the Imp warlords regained much of their earlier control.
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:49 pm
by Mikey
Captain Seafort wrote:the US victory was due to the luck of finding the Japanese carriers vulnerable
Sorry I'm a little late, here. In addition to Deepcrush's response, we're also forgetting about the superiority of U.S. shipborne aircraft, the superior ability of an American destroyer (vs. a Japanese one) to defend her carrier against aircraft, and the eventual superiority of the American wartime industrial base.
Add to that the testicular fortitude shown by people like Doolittle, and the fact that the Japanese really forced the U.S. to develop advanced carrier tactics - because they sunk everything else! - and I believe luck had little to do with the result.
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:26 pm
by Captain Seafort
At the time of Midway the Japanese had a major technological superiority over the US. It wasn't until the introduction of the Corsair and Hellcat that the US took the lead. The Fletcher-class destroyers were also weaker than their Japanese counterparts - it was the Sumner and Gearing classes that were demonstrably superior. As for the superior US industrial base, while that guaranteed US victory in the Pacific regardless of the outcome of Midway, it only started having a major impact in late 1943 onwards - it needed time to gear up, and untill then the US forces were fighting with technologically and numerially inferior kit. Indeed, in early to mid 1943 the US Pacifc Fleet needed reinforcement by HMS Victorious.
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:37 pm
by Deepcrush
I agree with seafort, the vicotry at Midway is what helped along the call for better aircraft which until then had been only a foot note. The Corsair was the first true air superiority fighter the US had ever built and the Hellcat was the best fighter-bomber of its time. But that still didn't come in until later. I disagree that the victory should be called luck. Luck was a factor, but not the only factor.
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:07 pm
by Mikey
I actually don't believed I specified one particular point during the timeframe of the war in the PTO in my post. What you mentioned, Seafort, is true, but none of it invalidates my point. I also didn't specify a particular class of destroyer, but regarding the Fletcher-class: I dind't say it was stronger than their Japanese counterparts - what I said was
the superior ability of an American destroyer (vs. a Japanese one) to defend her carrier against aircraft
(emphasis added.)
And yes, it most definitely did take time to gear up the U.S. industrial base; it did take time to design and produce superior aircraft; et. al., et. al. However, these things DID happen, and I don't believe that it is coincidental that the country where these things occured is the country that won in the PTO.
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:50 pm
by Deepcrush
I think that in regard it was that we were only talking about midway and not the war as a whole.
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:07 pm
by Mikey
we were only talking about midway
Then I humbly beg your and Captain Seafort's pardon.
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:16 pm
by Jim
Boy did this thread take a left turn... ha!
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:32 pm
by Deepcrush
Not really, i think our debate faired well in proving its point. In the end numbers by luck, skill or factory can play a strong role in turning the tide of a war and should never be underestimated for any reason. Proper placement and fielding can turn any advantage into a force to be reckoned with. Both in star wars and real life these points have been shown time and again.