Michael Moore and Gun Control Debate

[Tsukiyumi]

Is the average American that thick? Two centuries ago the average bloke off the street would have been able to match a soldier's weapons. These days, how long do you think a civvie's going to last against an Abrams, regardless of how good his nine-mil is?

Of course. The slight difficulty they'd have controlling us by force is only a small bonus.

My point was, firearm culture is sort of built in.

[Captain Seafort]

Of course. The slight difficulty they'd have controlling us by force is only a small bonus.

Iraqis are exactly lay-down-and-die types, and comparing the number of weapons in Iraq to the States is similar to comparing the States to the UK. Despite this, Saddam didn't have any problems controlling the country.

[Sionnach Glic]

And Saddam had nowhere near the disparity in power between his military and his citizens that exists between the US military and its citizens.

Let's face it; the concept of some sort of glorious revolution to overthrow and oppresive government is simply not going to work in the modern day. Look at Iraq. The US has lost just a few thousand, in a country where everyone and his dog owns a rifle and the population hates them. If the US government were to become oppresive, it'd still have a number of suporters amongst the populace. Also, it wouldn't have to worry about public opinion, which is the only way the Iraq insurgency can possibly gain anything.

[Tsukiyumi]

All very interesting, and entirely off-topic. Ah, well...

Iraq is roughly the size of California; the US simply doesn't have enough available hardware or manpower to declare martial law across the entire country. No to mention that half the soldiers in the military would likely desert in such a situation. Interesting thought experiment, but it won't be happening anytime soon.

And again, not what we were discussing.

[Captain Seafort]

Iraq is roughly the size of California; the US simply doesn't have enough available hardware or manpower to declare martial law across the entire country.

If the objective were to maintain security using minimum force, I could see your point. If the objective were to maintain control using any means necessary, then it would be a lot easier. They'd need more people, but not as many as you seem to think - fear is very effective tool, as Saddam demonstrated.

No to mention that half the soldiers in the military would likely desert in such a situation. Interesting thought experiment, but it won't be happening anytime soon.

Ten years ago I expect you'd have said the same thing if the "what if" had been the idea of the US army being ordered to take a few leaves out of the Gestapo's book. You'd have been wrong.

[Tsukiyumi]

Ten years ago I expect you'd have said the same thing if the "what if" had been the idea of the US army being ordered to take a few leaves out of the Gestapo's book. You'd have been wrong.

Funny thing about that; any of the soldiers and Marines I know don't give two sh*ts about the "hajis". I suspect that sentiment is common.

Order them to start bombing their hometowns, and they'd likely switch sides. Unless we were only bombing California. Then, I suspect they'd be back to not giving a sh*t.

[Captain Seafort]

Funny thing about that; any of the soldiers and Marines I know don't give two sh*ts about the "hajis". I suspect that sentiment is common.

Order them to start bombing their hometowns, and they'd likely switch sides. Unless we were only bombing California. Then, I suspect they'd be back to not giving a sh*t.

Then have Virginians controlling California, Montanans controlling Texas, etc. Problem solved. Not that I expect you'd have much of a problem in the first place, but you massively overestimate the reluctance of people to shoot at their own countrymen - look at Tienanmen, or the B-Specials, or Kent State.

[Sionnach Glic]

All it takes it the right propaganda to paint any dissidents as rebels and traitors. Dehumanise the enemy, and your soldiers are more likely to follow questionable orders.

[Tsukiyumi]

Yeah, it's possible. It's also about as likely to happen as me winning a presidential election.

Maybe next we can discuss the possibility and ramifications of the SAS switching to using exclusively French tactics and equipment. It'd be just as germane to the original topic.

[Captain Seafort]

Yeah, it's possible. It's also about as likely to happen as me winning a presidential election.

Given the right circumstances - a breakdown in law and order due to the depression and rising fuel prices, for example - and it could happen very easily

Maybe next we can discuss the possibility and ramifications of the SAS switching to using exclusively French tactics and equipment. It'd be just as germane to the original topic.

Says the bloke who quoted a few quotations supporting the 2nd Amendment that have been rendered obsolete (along with the amendment itself) by technological development.

[Tsukiyumi]

Says the bloke who quoted a few quotations supporting the 2nd Amendment that have been rendered obsolete (along with the amendment itself) by technological development.

My point with those quotes, as I stated, was that firearm ownership is built into our country's mindset, and isn't going anywhere. And, the American public (and the Supreme Court) disagrees with the 2nd's obsolescence.

I wasn't changing the subject.

[Captain Seafort]

the American public (and the Supreme Court) disagrees with the 2nd's obsolescence.

The American public and the Supreme Court also thought George Bush would be a good leader. This one isn't a matter of opinion - it's one of simple fact that a force with handguns and rifles cannot defeat one with tanks, artillery and air support.

[Tsukiyumi]

...This one isn't a matter of opinion - it's one of simple fact that a force with handguns and rifles cannot defeat one with tanks, artillery and air support.

And, I agree with you on that. However, that isn't what this discussion was about.

[Captain Seafort]

It is now - this is DITL, remember?

[Tsukiyumi]

It is now - this is DITL, remember?

Okay, I'll concede that point.

Fun conversation, Seafort. We'll have to do this again in, oh, six months or so.