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Re: Israel V Gaza

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:36 am
by Mikey
GrahamKennedy wrote:it used to work very well for all concerned
Fixed. :wink:

Honestly - I know you had some issues over here, but you guys really should have kept up your spheres of influence in Africa and Asia. Things would be much simpler. :lol:

Re: Israel V Gaza

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:31 am
by Captain Picard's Hair
Not saying I believe or disbelieve this, but here's a defense of Gaza:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/opini ... di.html?em
What You Don't Know About Gaza
By RASHID KHALIDI

NEARLY everything you've been led to believe about Gaza is wrong. Below are a few essential points that seem to be missing from the conversation, much of which has taken place in the press, about Israel's attack on the Gaza Strip.

THE GAZANS Most of the people living in Gaza are not there by choice. The majority of the 1.5 million people crammed into the roughly 140 square miles of the Gaza Strip belong to families that came from towns and villages outside Gaza like Ashkelon and Beersheba. They were driven to Gaza by the Israeli Army in 1948.

THE OCCUPATION The Gazans have lived under Israeli occupation since the Six-Day War in 1967. Israel is still widely considered to be an occupying power, even though it removed its troops and settlers from the strip in 2005. Israel still controls access to the area, imports and exports, and the movement of people in and out. Israel has control over Gaza's air space and sea coast, and its forces enter the area at will. As the occupying power, Israel has the responsibility under the Fourth Geneva Convention to see to the welfare of the civilian population of the Gaza Strip.

THE BLOCKADE Israel's blockade of the strip, with the support of the United States and the European Union, has grown increasingly stringent since Hamas won the Palestinian Legislative Council elections in January 2006. Fuel, electricity, imports, exports and the movement of people in and out of the Strip have been slowly choked off, leading to life-threatening problems of sanitation, health, water supply and transportation.

The blockade has subjected many to unemployment, penury and malnutrition. This amounts to the collective punishment - with the tacit support of the United States - of a civilian population for exercising its democratic rights.

THE CEASE-FIRE Lifting the blockade, along with a cessation of rocket fire, was one of the key terms of the June cease-fire between Israel and Hamas. This accord led to a reduction in rockets fired from Gaza from hundreds in May and June to a total of less than 20 in the subsequent four months (according to Israeli government figures). The cease-fire broke down when Israeli forces launched major air and ground attacks in early November; six Hamas operatives were reported killed.

WAR CRIMES The targeting of civilians, whether by Hamas or by Israel, is potentially a war crime. Every human life is precious. But the numbers speak for themselves: Nearly 700 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed since the conflict broke out at the end of last year. In contrast, there have been around a dozen Israelis killed, many of them soldiers. Negotiation is a much more effective way to deal with rockets and other forms of violence. This might have been able to happen had Israel fulfilled the terms of the June cease-fire and lifted its blockade of the Gaza Strip.

This war on the people of Gaza isn't really about rockets. Nor is it about "restoring Israel's deterrence," as the Israeli press might have you believe. Far more revealing are the words of Moshe Yaalon, then the Israeli Defense Forces chief of staff, in 2002: "The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people."

Rashid Khalidi, a professor of Arab studies at Columbia, is the author of the forthcoming "Sowing Crisis: The Cold War and American Dominance in the Middle East."
Don't shoot the messenger! :takecover:

Re: Israel V Gaza

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:40 am
by Mikey
I won't, CPH. But this article may as well have just consist of the word "spin" repeated constantly. His numbers for Israeli dead are woefully understated. He fails to mention that the Palestinian deaths were collateral to attacks on military targets - including "civvie" homes which Hamas set up as arms stores, etc. - while Hamas routinely directs attacks against apartment buildings, buses, et.al. Further, there's no reason that Gaza shouldn't be occupied terrritory; if the Arabs weren't prepared to lose territory they shouldn't have started the Six-Day War; or, they should have performed better.

Re: Israel V Gaza

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:26 am
by Captain Picard's Hair
Mikey wrote:I won't, CPH. But this article may as well have just consist of the word "spin" repeated constantly. His numbers for Israeli dead are woefully understated. He fails to mention that the Palestinian deaths were collateral to attacks on military targets - including "civvie" homes which Hamas set up as arms stores, etc. - while Hamas routinely directs attacks against apartment buildings, buses, et.al. Further, there's no reason that Gaza shouldn't be occupied terrritory; if the Arabs weren't prepared to lose territory they shouldn't have started the Six-Day War; or, they should have performed better.
More or less what I thought of it, honestly. I posted it to show what the other side thinks, but I find myself more sympathetic to the Israeli side. Your point about the Israelis having taken the land in a war started by Arab forces is well taken, and it is evident which side is indiscriminate in its targeting; Hamas has put ordinary Palestinians in the line of fire and then complained when they are gunned down in the cross-fire. In any event, how is Israel meant to respond to a body whose entire existence is founded on the philosophy that Israel must be destroyed? Hamas may have been democratically elected into power, but this does nothing to soften their intent. The idea of negotiation with a body which wants you dead seems uncertain, to put it mildly. I won't get into who started what since both sides can claim the other "started" something in a long string of accusations going back to 1948 - Israel "started" it simply by existing, in a manner of speaking.

Most of all, I concur with the opinion that this entire affair has been one long ongoing clusterfuck since 1948. The Arab world has never accepted reality, and Israel has always been on the edge of a knife (why is it that the Israeli populace need be so concerned about its state's "deterrence?"). Israel isn't 100% faultless to be sure, but it has been in an untenable position for virtually its entire existence. One can understand the Israelis being a bit (I don't even know the right word) considering the history of their state.

Re: Israel V Gaza

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:38 am
by Tsukiyumi
Captain Picard's Hair wrote:...The Arab world has never accepted reality...
Well, for the most part, we are talking about people who pray to a meteorite, so I'd say reality isn't necessarily their strong suit. :?

Re: Israel V Gaza

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:36 pm
by Mikey
Now, now, the meteorite was only the messenger.

Anyway, I'm really not trying to be an apologist. Jew =/= Israeli; and perhaps more importantly, Jew =/= Zionist. All I'm pointing out is that 1) however rightly or wrongly it was done by third-party entities, Israel does exist as a sovereign state; and 2) that state has the right to defend its citizens and its borders, and to return warfare when it is engaged by such.

Further, I still don't understand how people can discuss as sides of the same coin civilian collateral casualties, and attacks specifically directed against civilians.

Re: Israel V Gaza

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:07 pm
by Captain Picard's Hair
Well, I think that neither culture is more "wrong" or "right" than the other and have no fault with either culture in isolation (Islamic culture doesn't need to be any more violent than any other, or alternately, any culture can be turned aggressive) but that the endless cycle of enmity on both sides is pointless. No resolution will occur until the cultures can accept each other (IOW, never)

Re: Israel V Gaza

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:13 pm
by Mikey
That's the crux. Neither Judaism nor Islam ever preached violence as policy in their purest forms. What we have are two groups consumed by hate; the rest is just excuses.

Re: Israel V Gaza

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:21 pm
by Captain Picard's Hair
I just thought I'd note that warfare was a basic fact of life in Biblical times - not just for the Israelites but for everyone in the region. The birthplace of civilization is in a region which has never known much but warfare for millenia.

Welcome to Humanity 101. :wave:

Re: Israel V Gaza

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:54 pm
by Mikey
Further proof of my point. The violence endemic to that region is more specifically cultural, rather than religious.

Re: Israel V Gaza

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:02 pm
by Aaron
Good luck proving war crimes. The military is allowed to kill civvies as long as it can be proved that they were not the primary target in an attack. That's why their losses are termed "collateral damage". And we all know that the only way this could be proved is to invade Israel and try it's military and civvie leadership. Israel will just refuse to hand anyone over to the ICC and the US will block any international effort to get them.

Re: Israel V Gaza

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:08 pm
by Mikey
And on the other side - Hamas is intentionally targetting civilian targets. Think they'll be tried for war crimes? Fat chance.

Re: Israel V Gaza

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:14 pm
by Aaron
Mikey wrote:And on the other side - Hamas is intentionally targetting civilian targets. Think they'll be tried for war crimes? Fat chance.
You can't charge them with war crimes. There not a military or recognised partisan force, so they'd be charged as criminals under the GC. You might be able to charge them with inciting something as the elected government of the region but the international community doesn't recognise them as such, so they fucked themselves there.