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Captain Picard's Hair wrote:I don't remember specific eps of ENT well enough to comment on Archer's inconsistencies, but the idea that he should make a number of mistakes as a trail-blazer is a valid one. In general, his increasing willingness to do anything it takes to save earth was interesting to watch. Perhaps we might come up with some moments from this time?

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make. There were no previous mistakes to avoid; he was learning on the fly, as it were.

I don't remember that episode.

Ta da!
Read and be repulsed by the episode.

And didn't Picard do something like that with the Prime Directive until other members of his crew convinced him to do otherwise?

Quite right: he was willing to let an entire race die off. Why? Well, because the Prime Directive said so. And it's been drilled into him for his whole life that the Sacred Prime Directive is the Source Of All Goodness in the Federation. And even despite that, Picard in a later episode realised "this is BS".

Except, Archer had no PD to follow, it didn't exist.
Except, Archer didn't have it drilled into him from day one that this was what he should do.
Except, Archer was already involved with the species, unlike Picard.
Except, Archer had the cure that could save billions of people right there in his hand.
Except, that getting involved wouldn't have any unforseen consequences: they knew what was going to happen.

While everyone here agrees that Picard allowing an entire race to die out is morally reprehensible, Archer makes him look like a saint by comparison.

Rochey wrote:

I don't remember that episode.

Ta da!
Read and be repulsed by the episode.

I just read the Dear Doctor summery on Memory Alpha and it was Phlox who withheld the cure, not Archer. And he did help them, but still let the natural course of evolution take place on that planet.

Wow, I usually like SFDebris reviews, but this one apparently says people like Mikey and myself are selected to die by evolutionary design. Anybody stop to think that maybe we can elevate ourselves from the evolutionary ladder by choice at this point?

I know he was just trying to illustrate his point, but stating " Evolution says a man with bad legs dies. Evolution says a man with diabetes dies" as an opening point just loses me from the get-go. How about this one: " Thanks to the invention of the gun, the man with bad legs will blast anyone or anything that tries to kill him." Human ingenuity > Evolution

I guess I'll forgive the mocking of Native American culture as well, because, hey, we're good sports. I'll also ignore the pacifistic bullsh*t reference to familial abuse.

Otherwise, the review is spot-on.

Oh, and I forgot to mention him trashing on Emos.

Human ingenuity > Evolution

sigged

Tsukiyumi wrote:Wow, I usually like SFDebris reviews, but this one apparently says people like Mikey and myself are selected to die by evolutionary design. Anybody stop to think that maybe we can elevate ourselves from the evolutionary ladder by choice at this point?

I know he was just trying to illustrate his point, but stating " Evolution says a man with bad legs dies. Evolution says a man with diabetes dies" as an opening point just loses me from the get-go. How about this one: " Thanks to the invention of the gun, the man with bad legs will blast anyone or anything that tries to kill him." Human ingenuity > Evolution

I guess I'll forgive the mocking of Native American culture as well, because, hey, we're good sports. I'll also ignore the pacifistic bullsh*t reference to familial abuse.

Otherwise, the review is spot-on.

Oh, and I forgot to mention him trashing on Emos.

Dude, if it weren't for our technology you two would be dead. He's trying to make the point that Phlox was using evolution as an excuse not to act. And come on, First Nations culture in Trek bears no resemblance to real First Nations culture save that at one point you guys wore animal hide and so do the ones in Trek.

Even five hundred years ago, my f*cked legs could've been worked around. Probably easier, as there was no CSI to track me down after I butcher Lord Gildedspoon and his mistress, take their stuff, and retire to an island of easy wenches. I can still walk, just not very far, or very fast.

I guess Mikey would still be screwed, though.

It's the chosen use of the examples that I found irritating.

Tsukiyumi wrote:Even five hundred years ago, my f*cked legs could've been worked around. Probably easier, as there was no CSI to track me down after I butcher Lord Gildedspoon and his mistress, take their stuff, and retire to an island of easy wenches. I can still walk, just not very far, or very fast.

I guess Mikey would still be screwed, though.

It's the chosen use of the examples that I found irritating.

No offense but if those legs are a birth defect, I suspect you would have been the victim of rock related infanticide.

Some of his example are irritating and over the top. Thats the point though, ST has become a ridiculous collection of equally ridiculous stereotypes. So why not use the same to make fun of it?

rcher could have, and should have ordered Phlox to give the cure. He murdered millions.

Teaos wrote:rcher could have, and should have ordered Phlox to give the cure. He murdered millions.

Archer could have, he chose not to and we got the pompus prime directive speech.

The why I see it blame goes in this order:

Archer (ultimate decision was his as the CO)

Phlox (he oviously swayed Archer with his pre-destined evolution crap)

T'Pol (she was quite reasonable in this ep but her example of Vulcan helping out humainty didn't help)

Teaos wrote:rcher could have, and should have ordered Phlox to give the cure. He murdered millions.

Just playing devil's advocate here, what right did he have to choose the next order of evolution for these people?

Blackstar the Chakat wrote:
Just playing devil's advocate here, what right did he have to choose the next order of evolution for these people?

Evolution is basically irrelevant once technology reaches a certain level. We have the means now that allow all sorts of people to live that would have died off and "improved" the gene pool: diabetics, various birth defects etc.

Or perhaps I should say that it takes a different path now that technology allows different traits to flourish.

At any rate, Archer had the means to save billions of lives and threw it away on the chance that the Mnek might evolve into what Phlox thought they would. There's no guarantee that they would, what we do know is that the other species could have been saved.

If you want to get technical about it you could claim that humans have stopped evolving now.

Evolution comes about by the best and strongest mating while the weak and stupid dont. Since our society supports everyone equally we no longer do this.

The same is true for most species in trek.

This one of the more bizarre things I find in modern Trek. Flying around declaring that they can't play god or disturb "the natural order" of things (and there is no natural order) yet they themselves have mucked with the order of their own evolution with their own technology.

Apparently there is some grand cosmic plan in Trek, I shall dub it the Berman Theory.

Cpl Kendall wrote:Flying around declaring that they can't play god or disturb "the natural order" of things (and there is no natural order) yet they themselves have mucked with the order of their own evolution with their own technology.

I think the idea is that we're not allowed to mess with their natural order until they mess with it first, which makes some sense I guess.