www.ditl.org

You'd think so, right? But it's been tried. The Palestinians are so nuts that that isn't enough, and the Israelis are so nuts that some of them don't even want to do that much. The problem with that sort of solution is that land is merely a veneer or excuse for the problem; the real issue is a deep, non-rational hate on both parts.

So the whole land argument is basicaly just an excuse for the two groups to beat the crap out of each other?
Why am I not surprised.......

Yep, trying to find a rational cause for something as irrational as a genetic-memory, Jungian sort of hatred is just pissing in the wind.

Mikey wrote:
Here we go... the damn Jews all control the banks, the media, and state policy with our huge secret cabal (no pun intended.) Too bad nobody included me. Agan I have to ask why terrorists and murderers have to be characterized as being oppressed, and Jews have to be characterized as evil aggressors. Oh, wait, I know why - it's because we're not Christians.

Read.What.I.Wrote. And then go dump your martyr complex off somewhere else. Because the US politicians suck up to the Jewish lobby does not meant that the Jews control the world. There are plenty of lobby groups that do the same, the Cuban Exiles for one.

And you know I'm not a xtian so you can shove that argument back where you pulled it from. And BTW the Jews (in Israel anyways) are not being oppressed, rather the opposite.

Nope. If you want to return it to someone with a documented historical imperial claim on it, go find a Hittite. Sinai was the only Egyptian region that Israel ever controlled, which was won fairly from Egypt, and subsequently voluntarily returned.

Then give it to the Hittite. Or maybe A Caanite.

Deliberate obfuscation. Claiming a history that is far older than Christian history, and which is inevitably bound up with Biblical thinking, is not the same as directly claiming divine right - and is, in fact, the same claim as that which the Palestinians make. But, it's OK if they do it... I guess it's only wrong if the Jews do it.

It all boils down to a book that we have no verification for. Israel claims that the land is there's because it was promised to them by their god. Call it something other than divine right if you want, it won't change the fact that the land claim is based on dubious reasoning.

But hey, there's a rumor that my family is from Newfoundland. Perhaps we should move to Come-By-Chance, evict the locals and build a wall around it.

Cpl Kendall wrote:But hey, there's a rumor that my family is from Newfoundland. Perhaps we should move to Come-By-Chance, evict the locals and build a wall around it.

You appear to be making a sarcastic remark to the effect of decrying the Hebrew claim to the land of Israel; yet this patently also describes the similar Palestinian claim. How does this refute the one but not the other?

The Jews do have a strong lobby. And I'm sure that does make some degree of difference.

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Then give it to the Hittite. Or maybe A Caanite.

Those cultures are gone. Absorbed into who knows what at this point.

It all boils down to a book that we have no verification for. Israel claims that the land is there's because it was promised to them by their god. Call it something other than divine right if you want, it won't change the fact that the land claim is based on dubious reasoning.

But hey, there's a rumor that my family is from Newfoundland. Perhaps we should move to Come-By-Chance, evict the locals and build a wall around it.

You don't even have to go to the bible. It is their historical homeland. That's just secular fact.

Not that I think having a homeland somewhere entitels a people to a country. And the west doesn't entirely think so either the Jews had to fight for the land to get what they have in the first place, even against the British. We just support them now.

Mikey wrote: You appear to be making a sarcastic remark to the effect of decrying the Hebrew claim to the land of Israel; yet this patently also describes the similar Palestinian claim. How does this refute the one but not the other?

It's intended to show exactly how ridiculous the argument is.

Those cultures are gone. Absorbed into who knows what at this point.

And current Israeli culture bares almost no resemblance to it's past culture. In that regard they may as well be an enitirely different culture.

You don't even have to go to the bible. It is their historical homeland. That's just secular fact.

And? Why does that entitle them to it? Where's the country for the Kurds/Armenians/First Nations/Aborginals?

Not that I think having a homeland somewhere entitels a people to a country. And the west doesn't entirely think so either the Jews had to fight for the land to get what they have in the first place, even against the British. We just support them now.

And look how well it turned out, South Africa II: More Jewish.

Cpl Kendall wrote:It's intended to show exactly how ridiculous the argument is.

So why isn't it equally as ridiculous for both sides?

And look how well it turned out, South Africa II: More Jewish.

That reads like the problem is being attrbuted to Israel being not a religious state, but Jewish state in particular. Surely I'm misinterpreting that?

Mikey wrote:
So why isn't it equally as ridiculous for both sides?

I believe I've said it was before. But we're talking specifically about Israel here, that their shitheads doesn't make the Palestinian extremists any less of a shithead.

That reads like the problem is being attrbuted to Israel being not a religious state, but Jewish state in particular. Surely I'm misinterpreting that?

*sigh* Do you have guys in white hoods in your neighborhood or something? It means that it's the Jewish version of South Africa, Israel is a Jewish state by it's own decleration. Just like Afghanistan was North Korea: More Muslims. Understand?

The Jews claimed they were once from their and thus have a claim on it.

That is utterly stupid.

The other Arab nations arent claiming they were their a few thousand years ago and thus it was theirs. They are claiming it was theirs 60 years ago until to was STOLEN from them.

Frankly I'd solve the matter by placing a huge ass H bomb in Jerusalem and saying they either play together nice or no one gets it.

Teaos wrote: The other Arab nations arent claiming they were their a few thousand years ago and thus it was theirs. They are claiming it was theirs 60 years ago until to was STOLEN from them.

Well before that it belonged to the British and before that the Ottomans, it's a very popular chunk of land to conquer.

And again chunks of it were already in Jewish hands before all this started, and much of the early stuff was through legal purchases (simply bought the Arabs land from them), or though the British divying things up.

But there is no denying there was a shove to take over a lot more followed by some land theft, and it's continuing to this day. Though much of the stuff since 67 may be reversed.

And again chunks of it were already in Jewish hands before all this started,

Yes and when things were handled nicely like that they managed to live together quite nicely. But when you come in and take a lot of prime realestate... things dont go quite so well.

Well Jewish history for the previous ~2000 years or so had been being passed around between different empires that come through and conquered the area. Often it was pretty crappy for the Jews and a couple times they were driven out of their homeland entirely.

Though just before all this started I think things weren't so bad under the Ottoman empire. Oh Islam was the dominant religion, Jews had to pay and extra tax, so on and so forth but they kept the Jews from getting beheaded and the like.

Still after being conquered for thousands of years, and especially after the holocaust, I can see where they could have just had enough.

No ones saying the Jews didnt get a bad deal. But that doesnt change the fact that they are being C**** at the moment.

Also they didnt manage to fight their way back and take the country over. They had it handed to them on a silver platter then get propped up on forign money for the next half a century.

sunnyside wrote:...Oh Islam was the dominant religion, Jews had to pay and extra tax, so on and so forth but they kept the Jews from getting beheaded and the like...

Oh, right. The good ol' "Jizya tax". Join our religion, or pay us for not being Muslim. Very tolerant and enlightened of them.

From Wikipedia:

The jizya originates in the Qur'an which says "Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of the truth among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Texts I find offensive bolded. Sure sounds like a threat to me.

The riots and mutilations in israel accounting for over 339 injured jews and 133 dead jews(1920-1,1229) at the beginning of the twentieth century when israel was under the british mandate do somewhat show that the indigenous jews have often been regarded with animosity by the arabs pre 1947.


"Aleihum" (get them) and "Itbach Al Yahood" - murder the Jews have been common rallying cries.

Now i'm not courting any bitchyness nor aggression from anyone here,just stating what i know.
Personally and i know that this is probably grossly offensive to all, but since jews have not been blowing themselves up in the london underground or buses, nor flying into skyscrapers, and since there were documented palestinian street parties on 9/11 and 7/7, i say F**k Fatah/Harakat al-Tahrir al-Watani al-Filastini and F**k Hamas/harakat al-muqāwamah al-islāmiyyah, same to al-jabhah al-dīmūqrātiyyah li-tahrīr filastīn and al-jabhah al-sha`biyyah li-tahrīr filastīn, in israel i could freely say this without my political and social rights being affected, however in palestinian areas, my mortality would be all too obvious.