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The thing that got me, blackstar, was the virus thing. I don't push easily to threats, I usually push back. Sorry if it sounded a little harsh. Just do what I did when all the positions were open play a normal officer. Hell I wouldn't mind if you played someone in security. That ensign Munro ordered to construct a jail would be perfect if you wanted to play someone new. I had fun as Munro before he became department head. Security is one of those few spots where no matter who you pick it'll be fun

Blackstar, I have no idea why you're particularly angry at me for occupying the job you want, but I'm not changing it - sorry. Just because I haven't fired a torpedo doesn't mean I'm power hungry. I'd like to keep the opportunity to write about the fighter pilots, including people who I've already set up and added into the story (though you have somehow managed to never hear of).

Also Monroe, his virus/hacking comments were aimed at me. Which is why I'm being particularly unsympathetic.

Thorin wrote:Blackstar, I have no idea why you're particularly angry at me for occupying the job you want, but I'm not changing it - sorry. Just because I haven't fired a torpedo doesn't mean I'm power hungry. I'd like to keep the opportunity to write about the fighter pilots, including people who I've already set up and added into the story (though you have somehow managed to never hear of).

All I wanted was immediate control of them. All you would do with them anyway is point them towards where you want them to go and give them objectives. I even suggested a second group of fighters with the one experimental AI joining us which would be under my command but you weren't even willing to consider that compromise.

Also Monroe, his virus/hacking comments were aimed at me. Which is why I'm being particularly unsympathetic.

It was an empty threat. The only people who take that kind of threat serious are politicians, intelligence agencies(CIA, FBI, ect.), and people who don't think it through.

ChakatBlackstar wrote:
All I wanted was immediate control of them. All you would do with them anyway is point them towards where you want them to go and give them objectives.

No, that is all Jonathon Hewer would do. I have other characters, as I have repeatedly said, such as Lieutenant Anker Zionex, and he would be my primary character during dog fights. Regardless, tactical, of whom my primary character is head, would retain control.

I even suggested a second group of fighters with the one experimental AI joining us which would be under my command but you weren't even willing to consider that compromise.

You suggested replacements, not adding more, which wouldn't work for you for two reasons - there isn't room on the ship, and they're still tactical. Either way you would effectively be joining the tactical department if you took control of them.

It was an empty threat. The only people who take that kind of threat serious are politicians, intelligence agencies(CIA, FBI, ect.), and people who don't think it through.

I am meant to know that how? You threaten me with being hacked and you expect me to be particularly sympathetic to your cause?

Three fracking pages in less than half a day!

Right, firstly:
Blackstar, I'm not fighting every idea you have. I'm fighting your ideas when they make no sense.

Secondly, Tactical and Operations have always controlled the fighters and shuttles, respectively. By taking over and combining them into one role, not only would it decrease effeciency and manpower allocation, but it would also shatter a protocol and clearly defined command responsibilities that have been in place for who knows how long.

Thirdly, AI fighters simply aren't going to work, for a number of reasons that I pointed out earlier in this thread when you first suggested it.

Fourthly, humour doesn't always come across as you intend it when its in writing, hence Monroe's and Thorin's response to your hacking threat.

Fiftly, Thorin's pilot characters have been mentioned numerous times, and are also well established in the backstory. The fact that he hasn't written about them in a while (ignoring the fact that he was gone for that time) doesn't change the fact that they are there. That is also why I told you to PM Seafort if you wanted to take over Engineering: just because they haven't been doing much, that doesn't mean they aren't there any more.

Finaly, and in a similar vein to the previous point, the character of M'Real simply is not suited to any roles on the ship that are available. The only department that isn't under the control of a poster is currently Engineering, and that's completely out of M'Real's league altogether. Her flying record is also incredibly unimpressive, so even if we all agreed to let you take over the fighters, there'd still be no reason why the in-universe characters would let you. M'Real's backstory simply does not allow for her to be able to jump in and take control of any departments, manned or unmanned, at this point. A better idea would be to have a new character embark on the ship when we stop by that starbase who can actualy join a department in a realistic way, such as by joining as a pilot.

Righ, I think that adressed everything brought up in the last while.

Thorin wrote:You suggested replacements, not adding more, which wouldn't work for you for two reasons - there isn't room on the ship, and they're still tactical. Either way you would effectively be joining the tactical department if you took control of them.

First of all, I did suggest adding more. Second of all, the Daystrom only had these ships:

Type 9 Shuttle Craft: 7
Falcon Class Fighters: 7
Type 7 Cargo Shuttles: 5
Danube Class Runabout: 3

plus the half-built new ship, and that crazy transformer one, and M'Real's ship if I remember correctly. I'm sure they could find room for a handful of fighters, or maybe even remove one or two of the shuttles

well, if they're testing a prototype do you think they'd intrust it to a LT who only has only ever sat behind a console and who's been out with the flu or a LT. CMD. who would really know how well the AI is doing?

It was an empty threat. The only people who take that kind of threat serious are politicians, intelligence agencies(CIA, FBI, ect.), and people who don't think it through.

I am meant to know that how? You threaten me with being hacked and you expect me to be particularly sympathetic to your cause?

Well only an idiot would believe that kind of threat. Besides as long as you keep your anti-virus program up to date I really doubt I'd be able to infect your computer if I tried.

Blackstar, I'm not fighting every idea you have. I'm fighting your ideas when they make no sense.

All my ideas make sense. And name one idea of mine you haven't fought me about.

By taking over and combining them into one role, not only would it decrease effeciency and manpower allocation,

How?

AI fighters simply aren't going to work, for a number of reasons that I pointed out earlier in this thread when you first suggested it.

Which I still don't understand

A better idea would be to have a new character embark on the ship when we stop by that starbase who can actualy join a department in a realistic way, such as by joining as a pilot.

And stuck being under the command of a Lt. Jack-ass and Cmd. Sticks-up-ass? No thanks.

ChakatBlackstar wrote:plus the half-built new ship, and that crazy transformer one, and M'Real's ship if I remember correctly. I'm sure they could find room for a handful of fighters, or maybe even remove one or two of the shuttles

The idea of AI shuttles aren't generally liked anyway, and besides that as I've said, they're tactical anyway.

well, if they're testing a prototype do you think they'd intrust it to a LT who only has only ever sat behind a console and who's been out with the flu or a LT. CMD. who would really know how well the AI is doing?

The Chief Tactical officer who has served on the Daystrom for a year and has been a member of tactical for 4 years who has extensive knowledge of all tactical scenarios, and a very good team beneath him including an experienced fighter pilot who is in direct control of the fighters. Or a Lieutenant Commander (yes, like that really does make a difference, and I'm beginning to see why you forced yourself to be a Lt Commander when you created a new character) who has a service record of destroying a ship after coming out of the academy, has no known experience of AI or flying or co-ordinating craft, is an intelligence officer, and has come aboard a starship to investigate deaths.

Yeah, I can tell who I'd put in charge of ships which have a role of defending the ship. An experienced tactical officer whos role it is to defend to ship, or an inexperienced intelligence officer who is not part of the chain of command. Hmmm... Toughy.

Well only an idiot would believe that kind of threat. Besides as long as you keep your anti-virus program up to date I really doubt I'd be able to infect your computer if I tried.

You couldn't if you tried, I know that. But I don't respond well to threats - so expect absolutely no give from me.

All my ideas make sense. And name one idea of mine you haven't fought me about.

Just no one likes them, then?

How?

Because we have two departments who specialise in two separate operations. Putting one person who has no experience of those two separate operations would clearly reduce efficiency.

Which I still don't understand

Surprise.

And stuck being under the command of a Lt. Jack-ass and Cmd. Sticks-up-ass? No thanks.

Oh, no. Please - don't.

I like how you didn't even respond to the fact I have characters set up as fighter pilots.

First of all, I did suggest adding more. Second of all, the Daystrom only had these ships:
*snip*
plus the half-built new ship, and that crazy transformer one, and M'Real's ship if I remember correctly. I'm sure they could find room for a handful of fighters, or maybe even remove one or two of the shuttles

How do you know we have the room? How do you know we aren't already at full capacity already? The ship isn't that big.

well, if they're testing a prototype do you think they'd intrust it to a LT who only has only ever sat behind a console and who's been out with the flu or a LT. CMD. who would really know how well the AI is doing?

I think they'd entrust it to a skilled pilot who's had recent flying experience rather than someone who crashed her undamaged fighter into a planet the moment she graduated, and hasn't had any real flying experience for three years.

All my ideas make sense.

No, they don't. This AI fighter idea has more holes in the plot than swiss cheese, and your idea of having the Daystrom take part in an inter-stellar race was similarly poorly thought out. Everyone else agrees with my conclusions on this matter. When half a dozen people are telling you something doesn't make sense, chances are that it doesn't make sense.

And name one idea of mine you haven't fought me about.

If I've been fighting with you about all your ideas, then its because all your ideas were foolish.
Anyway, the fighter and space-race ideas are the only ones I've ever recalled fighting with you about. I had no problems with most of your others.

How?

Because now the pilots have new officers to report to.
Because now the pilots are not working with officers they already know.
Because now an entirely new department has to be set up, requiring more personel, offices, officers, equipment, and a new place in the chain of command.
Because now one department has to split its attention between civilian and military matters.
Because now personel will be moved from their original departments and will be working with officers they've never worked with before, doing duties they never had to concern themselves with before, under a commander they never worked with before.

That's just off the top of my head, and I've already found five problems. Given time I could probably think up more.

Which I still don't understand

They're written in plain English, not Irish or some other language.

The idea of them developing top-secret prototype fighters on the border of a hostile power is insane, as is the idea of handing these fighters to a ship that will be going straight through that territory. That's a freaking disaster waiting to happen if the Tholians get so much as an inkling of what's going on. No one sane would take that chance. There are far better places to develope and test out these fighters.
Also, everthing we have seen so far indicates that the Federation has a thing about giving machines their own sentience.
Also, sentient fighters are just asking for trouble. No sane engineer would ever slap a fully self-aware AI into a working fighter and simply hope that it doesn't do anything of its own volition.
The idea of M'Real being given command of these fighters also makes no sense. She crashed her ship, which was completely undamaged, into a planet just after graduating the acadamy. And since then she hasn't had any real flying experience for three whole years. She'd be the last person on the ship they'd hand these super-expensive fighters to.

Yeah, I can tell who I'd put in charge of ships which have a role of defending the ship. An experienced tactical officer whos role it is to defend to ship, or an inexperienced intelligence officer who is not part of the chain of command. Hmmm... Toughy

Now you're not making any sense boy. M'Real was a highly trained pilot and the second in her class. She'd be an excelent choice for monitering the new AI. Thorin should be busy with the ship.

You couldn't if you tried, I know that. But I don't respond well to threats - so expect absolutely no give from me.

Oh, right, like you were gonna give me anything anyway

Just no one likes them, then?

Bingo

I like how you didn't even respond to the fact I have characters set up as fighter pilots.

Okay, I think it's rude that you have two characters(the tactical officer and that pilot of yours) while I'm having trouble keeping one.

Now you're not making any sense boy. M'Real was a highly trained pilot and the second in her class. She'd be an excelent choice for monitering the new AI. Thorin should be busy with the ship.

Despite crashing her undamaged ship into a planet just after graduating, and not having any real flying experience for three years?
How many times do I need to keep pointing this out?

Bingo

Already adressed this.

Okay, I think it's rude that you have two characters(the tactical officer and that pilot of yours) while I'm having trouble keeping one.

You had four characters at one point: Blackstar, Sally, Silvertail, and Starbolt.

Okay, Rochey...You really need to read the whole thing before you object to it.

The idea of them developing top-secret prototype fighters on the border of a hostile power is insane, as is the idea of handing these fighters to a ship that will be going straight through that territory. That's a freaking disaster waiting to happen if the Tholians get so much as an inkling of what's going on. No one sane would take that chance. There are far better places to develope and test out these fighters.

First of all they are the same models as the ones we've been carrying already. One of them is mearly equiped with an AI. And it wasn't developed at the border. It's just being sent on a live fire mission near it to deal with that base I thought we were going after

Also, everthing we have seen so far indicates that the Federation has a thing about giving machines their own sentience.
Also, sentient fighters are just asking for trouble. No sane engineer would ever slap a fully self-aware AI into a working fighter and simply hope that it doesn't do anything of its own volition.

assuming it's sentient. It's a computer, computers can be programmed. At no point did I say it was sentient.

The idea of M'Real being given command of these fighters also makes no sense. She crashed her ship, which was completely undamaged, into a planet just after graduating the acadamy. And since then she hasn't had any real flying experience for three whole years. She'd be the last person on the ship they'd hand these super-expensive fighters to.

She is still a half decent pilot and was the top of her class. And they weren't expensive, the Federation doesn't use money remember?

Rochey wrote:

Bingo

Already adressed this.

You still haven't named me one time you agreed with one of my ideas

Okay, I think it's rude that you have two characters(the tactical officer and that pilot of yours) while I'm having trouble keeping one.

You had four characters at one point: Blackstar, Sally, Silvertail, and Starbolt.

And only Blackstar was in an important role. Sally was an AI who helped Blackstar. Silvertail was an EMH who didn't take anyone's job, not really anyway. And Starbolt was a baby for crying outloud. His two characters take up two important roles and he's not willing to give up either of them.

ChakatBlackstar wrote: Now you're not making any sense boy. M'Real was a highly trained pilot and the second in her class. She'd be an excelent choice for monitering the new AI. Thorin should be busy with the ship.

You've changed your tune. Thorin should be busy with the ship? You've subtly changed your wording from I should be protecting the ship, which is what I should be done, and which is what controlling the fighters is.

Oh, right, like you were gonna give me anything anyway

If you gave a suitable idea and backstory, yes.

Bingo

...

Okay, I think it's rude that you have two characters(the tactical officer and that pilot of yours) while I'm having trouble keeping one.

Even if I didn't, the fact remains that the job of tactical is to protect the ship using military assets. That is pretty much tactical's definition.

Clearly you have a problem with joining tactical, both Mikey and myself have said all along you can join either department, or you can be some sort of Shuttlebay worker. But you can't join both, and you can't solely be in command of anything. Tactical will always control the military assets - the fighters.
Your real problem is not the fact that tactical controls them - which you, and everyone else, knows they should - but that my main character (and thus 'me') is head of that department. You have a problem with that. I've said you can join tactical and be a part of the fighter's organisation that way, but you would still be answerable to the chief tactical officer. That is your problem - you purposefully came back as Lieutenant Commander in the hope of being answerable to no one. Well, quite simply, I 'called' tactical first.

So in story - tactical will always control the military assets (the fighters), and M'Real is welcome to join tactical and head up the fighters that way - while still the head of tactical retains control. Out of story you've got a problem with being answerable to me if you did join tactical. As you've made clear on countless occasions.

Okay, Rochey...You really need to read the whole thing before you object to it.

Says the one who clearly never read my objections in the first place.

First of all they are the same models as the ones we've been carrying already. One of them is mearly equiped with an AI. And it wasn't developed at the border. It's just being sent on a live fire mission near it to deal with that base I thought we were going after

Why would they be sent all the way out here? Why test them out near the borders of a race that is known to be agressive towards the Federation, and who would probably jump at the chance to grab this ship? Its an ambush waiting to happen. There are better places to test out a ship than sending it through hostile territory.

assuming it's sentient. It's a computer, computers can be programmed. At no point did I say it was sentient. ?

Then what's the difference between this and the computer the ships already have built in?

She is still a half decent pilot and was the top of her class.

Yes. Three years ago. She then proceeded to crash her ship into a planet despite taking no damage at all. Not the best candidate. Or do you seriously think the USAF would have no qualms giving an F-22 to such a person?

And they weren't expensive, the Federation doesn't use money remember?

Expensive can mean more than just in monetary terms. Its expensive in resources, effort, and man-hours.

You still haven't named me one time you agreed with one of my ideas

Irrelevant. I was reffering to the part you seemed to have missed:

I wrote:This AI fighter idea has more holes in the plot than swiss cheese, and your idea of having the Daystrom take part in an inter-stellar race was similarly poorly thought out. Everyone else agrees with my conclusions on this matter. When half a dozen people are telling you something doesn't make sense, chances are that it doesn't make sense.

If I've been fighting with you about all your ideas, then its because all your ideas were foolish.
Anyway, the fighter and space-race ideas are the only ones I've ever recalled fighting with you about. I had no problems with most of your others.

Your ideas make no sense, this is why we argue with you.

And only Blackstar was in an important role. Sally was an AI who helped Blackstar. Silvertail was an EMH who didn't take anyone's job, not really anyway. And Starbolt was a baby for crying outloud. His two characters take up two important roles and he's not willing to give up either of them.

Point remains: you had four characters. Numerous posters here have other characters that they use from time to time, its not just Thorin.