Deepcrush wrote:
Doesn't matter. Its still a battleship. Heavy armor and heavy weapons. You need a battleship to face something like that.
I ment the Defiant class is not a battleship. I know the Dominon ship is one. My point was that we see it defeat a smaller ship not a Sov.
They were better. They carried an advantage. It doesn't matter where that advantage comes from or leads to. Its still an advantage.
This is just going to be were we disagree, I don't see ships that get blown apart farely easy as being better just because of a single system.
Doesn't matter. Its still more then a match for anything the UFP is fielding.
You know this because it was able to capture an Intrepid class?
So then this means that if you don't know if you can match a ship from another race. Common sense says build a ship that can. A battleship!
We don't know, that does not mean the Federation doesn't. Again the fact that they have not built a larger ship then the Sov speaks to that. Unlike you I do not believe that Federation is a bunch of morons.
The entire episode was spent watching the E-D get knocked around while giving almost nothing in return.
Do you know why that was, it was because the E-D was showing restraint. They were doing everything in their power to get Picard back short of an all out battle.
What is the point of this statement? I'm an American, not a Scotsman.
A "no true Scotsman" argument were any example of something, in this case battleships, that does not fit your definition is not a battleship. You said that if you could put more armor on a ship it is not a battleship. Since you could almost always put more armor on a ship, nothing can ever live up to your definition.
Nice little twist out of context there. Very cute. But still doesn't take the point away from the main subject. The Sov has HOLES in its armor. A battleship or just a dedicated warship (like the Defiant) would be bow to stern armor plate. If you have room to add weapons or armor then you need to add them. That is the point of a battleship. To stack it with so much firepower that you're shocked the damned thing even moves without falling apart.
So you just totally discount the Sovs shields or the armor it does have. Again, back to the logicl fallacy that is the "No ture Scotsman". You could almost always add another gun, or more armor. You could add it until the ship could hardly move. Just because you don't does not mean a ship is not a battleship.
Battleship definitions - "any of a class of warships that are the most heavily armored and are equipped with the most powerful armament" or "Any one of a class of warships of the largest size, carrying the greatest number of weapons and clad with the heaviest armor."
By those definitons the Sov is a battleship as it does have the greatest armament of any class in the federation, and the greatest greatest armor when you count both the armor and the shields.
How well is that again? Was it when the Sona started beating on them or when the Scimitar started cutting huge holes in her? You fail to understand that its not about making either the primary defense. But to build a balance between them.
Even the best battleships under enough firepower will see its armor fail. The Sov with its shields and armor still took a hell of a lot of damage. Were did the Scimitar cuts holes in the E-E other then the bridge, were by the way were no windows. Not only that but for what was an almost direct hit on the bridge the armor/hull was strong enough to prevent the entire bridge from being destroyed.
No one is, we are? What are you taking about?
Deep do you even remember what you were arguing? You said that no one was saying the the Sov did not have armor, but that is what we see. I responded with the statement "no one, we are?" to the fact that you stated that no one was arguing that point, then you argured the point.
Though this has been covered.... The crew of the E-D (Best of Both Worlds) used the Nav Deflector to focus the power of the Warp Core as a weapon. Now, they were able to do this with something that wasn't built for use as a weapon. Now figure that if they built it as a weapon... wait... they did... in AGT we saw the E-D with a weapon that was fed straight from the Warp Core and was able to punch holes into a Negh'Var.
They were able to use something that was designed to output large amounts of energy, the Nav Deflector, to output a even larger amount of energy and just about destroy the deflector in the process. Just the same as you could overload phasers to the point of destorying them. If anything the Deflector "weapon" was tried not only because of it massive power output, but the thought was the borg would not be ready for it. The crew know from it's first encounter with the Borg, were the E-D's phasers blow chunks out of a cube, that weapons the borg had not seen before did lots of damage.
As got the AGT the phaser lance was in a future very much created by Q. There is no evidance that the Federation has, or ever will develop such a weapon.
