Sovereign class

[Thorin]

Actually the original question was how "nice" is the Sovereign
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, though. It's a simple a matter of opinion whether or not you believe having civilians on a Galaxy class vessel is right or wrong.

[Revan]

I think Starfleet ships are built for exploration and diplomacy, but are capable of combat.

There are big-bads out in the universe, and it would be foolish not to arm our ships to defend themselves.

So, non-military vessels armed for combat, with non-military commanders capable of making military decisions using military tactics.



It is rather more complex than many of you are giving it justice. I do not think you can break it down (usually) into military and non-military. The Defiant certainly... but the Akira class, built with obvious combative abilities, can still serve as a diplomatic escort or it could be used to map an unknown sector.

[Teaos]

Ok so you say you wouldn't mind civilians on a pure science ship. So lets say a few dozen Nebual class star ships are re fitted with bunch of science stuff. You wouldn't mind civilians on it then.

But its also going to need some weapons. Tubes to launch probes and phasers for natural phonomina and pirates. That makes it a partial risk to enemy in the system. Thus the civilians are going to be at risk no matter what. So it would make more sense to have better weapons to protect them... then we get the standard starfleet ship.

Its not a great warship but it can hold its own against other powers and win so you can hardly say they suck.

[Thorin]

Ok so you say you wouldn't mind civilians on a pure science ship. So lets say a few dozen Nebual class star ships are re fitted with bunch of science stuff. You wouldn't mind civilians on it then.

But its also going to need some weapons. Tubes to launch probes and phasers for natural phonomina and pirates. That makes it a partial risk to enemy in the system. Thus the civilians are going to be at risk no matter what. So it would make more sense to have better weapons to protect them... then we get the standard starfleet ship.

Its not a great warship but it can hold its own against other powers and win so you can hardly say they suck.

Exactly! To not put weapons on a ship, any ship, is absolutely absurd.

[Mikey]

I think the grain of sand at the heart of this pearl is this: there is no heirarchical distinction between the military and exploratory arms of the Federation - they BOTH are Starfleet.

Until there is a non-Starfleet organization dedicated to exploration (which would still require SOME defensive capabilities on their ships,) we must "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst." In other words, if there is even a small chance that a Starfleer vessel will serve on a military-type mission, it must be treated as a military vessel - no non-essential civvies, etc.

Although the end result was unfortunate, the Raven is a good example. No problem with family aboard, because it was NOT a Starfleet vessel. Although I'm not sure I would bring my toddler with me to go chaqsing the Borg...

[Thorin]

The point is that exploration vessels/science vessels must be given weaponary. But then everyone says that they're battleships and that they shouldn't have civilians onboard. If they had no weaponary, they may have civilians on board, which in my humble opinion would put them at even more risk.

[Teaos]

Thus we have a catch 22.

So it all comes down to personal opinion.

[Deepcrush]

Then they should all enlist in starfleet and work the science depts, then they can do what ever they want and no one who shouldnt' be there won't be there. No civis

[Thorin]

Then they should all enlist in starfleet and work the science depts, then they can do what ever they want and no one who shouldnt' be there won't be there. No civis

Says who? How you going to stop them? You have no bounds over what civilians do. If they want to build their own ships as science vessels you are pretty naive if you think you can force them to join starfleet as science officers.

[Mikey]

Perhaps unfortunately, that's correct, until there is a separate organization dedicated to exploration/research.

[Teaos]

But if you do that and form a seperate branch for science/exploration you face the problem we pointed out. Those ships have to be armed as well.

[Thorin]

But if you do that and form a seperate branch for science/exploration you face the problem we pointed out. Those ships have to be armed as well.

And then Starfleet would steal them and call to battle, then everyone on here would say that they shouldn't have civilians on them!

[Sionnach Glic]

Thats the main problem. Starfleet makes no civilian/military distinction. The organisation should be split in two. Allowing one part to focus on purely scientific and exploratory matters, with the other foccusing on military matters.
At least then if Starfleet commandeers the civilian vesels there's an excuse for civilians on board them, while the military branch can be safely purged of the needless civilians.

[Thorin]

T
At least then if Starfleet commandeers the civilian vesels there's an excuse for civilians on board them, while the military branch can be safely purged of the needless civilians.

Don't blame Starfleet for the idiotic writers. They haven't done that, so we've got to go with what they have done. What they have got is Starfleet as very naive and self assured, thinking no one would attack their science vessels, and that they wouldn't need to go into combat. With this as the case, and only exceptions been for episodes for viewers, I don't see problems with civilians on certain starships.

[Sionnach Glic]

Indeed, the idiots in charge are to blame.
In universe, however, there is no excuse for their blatant stupidity.