www.ditl.org

Yeah... running current gen games PCIE 2.0 vs. 3.0 is kind of a wash. With the graphics cards he's throwing up and I'm proposing I doubt you'd have issues with even Crysis 3 even if you're running through a 2.0 slot. However 2.0 is old tech and 3.0 is the new standard. In 2 years good luck finding a 2.0 card that isn't garbage and if you're buying a PCI 3.0 card now get a 3.0 mobo, given the price difference there's no reason not to do it. And my big concern would be that in 2 years when you start looking for a new video card your only real option will be to change out the entire motherboard so you can get a 3.0 slot that would have cost you what, $10 more today? It's just not worth it to not get a 3.0 slot right now.

And I'll cop to having issues with the ITX form factor. I don't like it for gaming both for space and cooling issues. I see ITX and I think home entertainment PC, overpowered file server, or maybe a business desktop or home Facebook machine. I don't think "Gamer." Hell, I don't even like micro ATX very much or mid towers. I like full size Mobos and big tower cases. I hate messing with tiny cramped computers.

Tyyr wrote:A couple things, first, get a regular hard drive in addition to the SSD. That's a fantastic deal on the SSD you've picked but it's still only 256 GB and that's going to be tight if you start doing regular stuff with it. If you just use this as more or less a game console then you'll probably be fine, tied into some cloud gaming services like Steam so you only have to install what you want to play at the moment and you're fine. However if you want to be saving pictures, some movies, and doing other tasks I'd highly recommend getting a regular 1TB drive. You can get them for under $100 and it'll quintuple your storage. Just put your programs on the SSD and store all regular data on the spinny drive.

Check.

I have a 500GB hard drive that I'm using with my current computer. It is oldish so yeah I probably will want to get a new one in the future but I think its good for now.

A couple other things, that mobo only runs SATA 2.0, not SATA 3.0. Your SSD is backwards compatible with SATA 2 but you're not going to get the speeds you expect. Also it has a PCI Express 2.0 slot but your graphics card wants a PCI Express 3.0. I also dislike it because it's only got two RAM slots. While 8GB is what I'd recommend for right now at some point in your computer's life you're going to want to go to 16GB and instead of just adding 8 you're going to have to throw away your current 8 and buy 16.

LOL!! Thanks for catching this. Again, shows how much of an "enthusiast" I am. There was a time when I thought I wanted to do something in computers but maybe not anymore. I do enjoy building systems but obviously I need to go back and re learn some things. (Or get some things I never learned before. )

Finally, looking at that case and that Mobo and that video card there's a good chance it won't fit. Not to mention the fan intake is going to be pointed right at your side panel with a centimeter or two of open space so I'm real worried about cooling. Be prepared to potentially have to return the video card and hunt for a slimmer one.

See below.

Oh, and the Case doesn't have a PSU so you're gonna need one.

Check.

I believe my current one is 650 watts.

I know you're shooting for the tiny form factor but ITX has you giving up a lot to pack the components into a tiny box. I personally wouldn't recommend an ITX to a gamer.

Apologies if I sound wishy washy, but I just realized that one of my goals with this build was to do some kind of portable desktop mod thing. Something like this.

I ended up getting a 23" Asus monitor, which of course is even bigger than a regular ATX, so yeah, I think I'll just stick with the standard ATX.


Also, is there some reason Newegg is preferred? I'd rather spend $183 on the CPU than $199, and with tax the amazon price will probably be around $200 anyway.

Just wondering what it is about Newegg, sure they have a better layout but I generally find Amazon prices to be better.

CPU: i5-3470 You picked a great CPU for a gaming rig. Quad core, 3.2 Ghz. $199.00

Well I should give credit where credit is due. I partially followed this article with some adjustments of course.

CPU Cooler: XIGMATEK Gaia 120mm I'm kind of a cooling Nazi, but every computer problem I've ever had has been related to overheating so I make sure things stay cold. You can probably get away with the stock cooler as Intel's aren't horrible (not like AMD's garbage) but... well it's $20 to make sure your CPU never cooks itself. $19.99

That's not bad, thanks!

Mobo: ASRock H77 Micro ATX You get 4 slots for RAM, a PCI Ex 3.0 slot, 2 USB 3.0 ports (on the back, yeah it's not perfect), 4 SATA 3 connectors, 4 SATA 2 Connectors, and it supports RAID set ups on board, and an eSATA connector for a very fast external hard drive. It's a very nice board. $89.99. There's a slightly less expensive option that has fewer SATA 3 connectors and no eSATA for $69.99 (regularly $79.99).

As I mentioned, I'll maybe looking at a regular size mobo but I could probably get away with mATX. I don't want this thing to be too heavy.

RAM: G.SKill RipJaws 2x4GB That'll leave you two slots open. Corsair is good stuff but I've had this in my last two desktops and it is rock solid. It's also 1.5v right out of the box. I swear by this RAM. $49.99

Cool. I actually already have 4GB of gskill ram in my current desktop. The only reason I list new memory is because I'm stuck on linux because I haven't been able to install windows and I'm not sure where the problem is, tho from research, sounds like it could be memory or a hard disk issue. Well or a corrupt file.

GPU: GIGABYTE Radeon HD 7850 2GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 My opinion of NVidia has been in decline. I have yet to upgrade my drivers that my system didn't immediately shit the bed and require a roll back to an older set to keep working. NVidia has driver issues. Good hardware and the drivers usually get sorted out but the drivers are such a pain in the ass it's not even funny. So I'm committing the ultimate sin of an NVidia fan boy and recommending an AMD card. $184.99 and you get a free copy of Bioshock Infinite and Tomb Raider. Kind of a good deal if you care about those games.

Good deal on a 256 bit card. Nice.

The only reason I'm hesitant about AMD cards is that I'd like to have the option of installing linux and from what I've heard Nvidia seems to be the most friendly to linux as far as driver support. Also I like to dabble in 3d modelling occasionally with Blender and I've heard it has issues with AMD cards (tho this may be old info, I haven't delved deeply into the topic).

Of course it will mostly be a gaming computer and I do those things rarely with little success usually so I guess it doesn't matter too much.

Storage: Crucial 256GB SATA 3 SSD Yeah, that SSD is kick ass enough that I'd go ahead and buy it right now. I'm trying to figure out how I could afford it myself. With the SATA 3 mobo you'll get the speed you expect out of it too. However I'd also add in a regular drive. If you current one is iffy replace it. Seagate Barracuda 1TB 7,200 rpm Again, this is my default drive. It's technically a SATA 3 drive but conventional hard disk technology isn't likely to make any use of that unless it's got what you're going to ask for cached. $159.99 + $79.99

Sounds like you highly recommend Crucial M4. Cool. And as I said, I have a regular 500GB drive and not much need for 1TB.

Case: COOLER MASTER HAF 912 It's going to be bigger than an ITx case but it's a mid tower so it's not a monolith either. The benefits you get are much, much better airflow and less concerns about the size of your video card. It's also a Cooler Master and it's got a bottom mounted PSU instead of a top mount. It comes with a pair of fans installed with space for several more 120mm fans if you're a spaz like me. $59.99

Cool, what's the significance of bottom mounted vs top mounted? Better cooling?

PSU: CORSAIR CX430M 430W BRONZE Certified Modular It's $3 more than the standard 430 but for that you get modular cables so you only use what you need and don't clutter up the case with lots of extras. $49.99

Check. 650 watt IIRC.

Odds and Ends: COOLER MASTER 120mm Case Fan 4 in 1 pack Enough fans to fill the extra openings in your case with some left over. You don't need 4 but then this is a hell of a deal. You can pay more and get some LED fans that's up to you. $11.99
SATA 3 Cables You want two, and use the ones that come with the board for your DVD-ROM and old hard drive. $8.58

$915.48 and with a copy of Windows 7 the grand total is $1,006.65. So forget I mentioned the extra fans.

Technically slash about $300, since the SSD is more of a future upgrade since I'll try my regular drive first and see if that works. If not than I guess I'll be forced to upgrade! ($100 or so). Then minus $50 or so since I already have ram sticks and if they don't work, then of course upgrade. PSU, check.

So what do you get?

CPU: Same but with a cooler.
Mobo: SATA 3 Support, 2 more RAM slots, a PCI Express 3.0 Slot
RAM: 1.5V out of the gate
GPU: Double the VRAM
Storage: 1TB conventional Drive
Case: Better airflow, no space worries
PSU: You get one, and it's modular

Looks good, I'll just have to look into the Linux and AMD thing.

So yes, you're paying a premium over what you've got listed but you still need a PSU for your build, you'll have no SATA 3 support so your SSD is hobbled, your GPU is hobbled by an older slot style, and I think cooling is going to be a real problem on more advanced games.

Sounds good.

Oh, but I should mention this is not a set up designed for overclocking. The CPU and Mobo would need to be changed out. You'll have plenty of cooling but if you wanted to overclock this is not the set up for it. On the upside, there's not much point to overclocking.

Exactly why I chose the i5-3470 over the k version, not really into overclocking at all, I just don't feel comfortable doing it, like I said, not that enthusiast.

I remember reading something about a project to hit 5Ghz, I wonder if they ever got there. Again, not that it matters.

This thing will run every game that comes out for the next two years on high settings. I built my last PC on pretty much the same concept and I still hit over 50 FPS even with things maxed out on any game I've put on it. When it comes time to upgrade you'll have a PCIE 3.0 slot so with 8 more gigs of RAM and a new video card you'll be good for two more years for maybe $250.

Excellent. That's what I'm aiming for.


Thanks!

Now, to save.... 8)

And I'll cop to having issues with the ITX form factor. I don't like it for gaming both for space and cooling issues. I see ITX and I think home entertainment PC, overpowered file server, or maybe a business desktop or home Facebook machine.

I think those are called "tablets" these days, the facebook machine thing.

I have a 500GB hard drive that I'm using with my current computer. It is oldish so yeah I probably will want to get a new one in the future but I think its good for now.

*Shrug* That's up to you. Personally I don't trust old drives. Given how cheap storage is when I build a new computer I buy new drives, copy everything over, and use the drives for non-critical storage. My old 500GB drives are storing recorded TV right now. If one goes it's no big deal.

I believe my current one is 650 watts.

PSU's lose some capacity over time so it's not likely 650 watts anymore. Still you need less than 300 for what you've got outlined here so it should be fine.

Apologies if I sound wishy washy, but I just realized that one of my goals with this build was to do some kind of portable desktop mod thing. Something like this.

If that's what you're after then go for it. My only advice would be to make sure you've got good temperature readings on things like your CPU, GPU, and hard drives and be ready to drop your graphics levels if things get toasty.

Also, is there some reason Newegg is preferred? I'd rather spend $183 on the CPU than $199, and with tax the amazon price will probably be around $200 anyway.

I like Newegg as they are laid out MUCH better, have better specs info, you get more intelligent reviews, and I've used them before with zero issues. If you can get a better deal with Amazon then go for it. I'd still use Newegg to hunt for what you need though then check Amazon for it.

Well I should give credit where credit is due. I partially followed this article with some adjustments of course.

Hey, best way to learn is a detailed build where the guy explains why he likes what he likes.

That's not bad, thanks!

No problem. I've got an even bigger one on my computer at home. It's overkill and I know it. This though, $20 is not a bad price and Xigma makes good stuff. It should have no issues keeping an i5 cool, especially in the HAF case since the rear fan will be right in line with it.

As I mentioned, I'll maybe looking at a regular size mobo but I could probably get away with mATX. I don't want this thing to be too heavy.

You really need to figure out what you're going to carry it around in first. I just really don't like what you have to give up for an ITX board. mTX lets you get pretty much everything an ATX board has but in a more compact form. If you don't mind working in a smaller chassis then an mTX is perfectly fine.

Good deal on a 256 bit card. Nice.

It's a real good deal and if you get it with that promo you're getting $100 or a $120 worth of games with it. It's not the absolute top of the line but the guys dropping $500 on a video card are idiots when $200 will run any current gen game at 50+ FPS. Unless you're running some obscenely high res monitor or set up, then it might not be crazy. For one or two displays though, nuts.

I can't speak to the Linux issue with AMD's, that's gonna be research you'll have to do.

Sounds like you highly recommend Crucial M4. Cool.

Crucial is a good company, this a product right in their bread box, and 256GB for $160 is insane. I'd definitely grab it.

Cool, what's the significance of bottom mounted vs top mounted? Better cooling?

Well first of all putting the heavy PSU on the bottom will make the case more stable. Secondly it'll be drawing in cool air from the bottom of the case to cool itself with instead of the hot stuff that's be rising through the machine. Admittedly you're not putting your CPU up there but you can put a big fat CPU cooler on that, you can't do much about the cooling for your PSU. That and with a case like the HAF you've go so much ventilation at the top its a non-issue. For me though, it's 90% about the stability.

Then minus $50 or so since I already have ram sticks

The old 4 gigs? While it'll work, probably, I still think a computer like this needs 8 gigs of RAM. Even if you don't put it in now you're going to have to put it in later. May as well go all out now.

Exactly why I chose the i5-3470 over the k version, not really into overclocking at all, I just don't feel comfortable doing it, like I said, not that enthusiast.

I'll be honest with you, I don't think overclocking is necessary, even for hardcore gamers. With CPU and GPU speeds what they are and how biased games are today towards your GPU I just don't see how overclocking is worth it. I do understand the enjoyment out of taking something and doing something new with it but when I look at what it costs, just to do it and then to fix it if something busts, versus the benefit I just don't see it. Unless you do something crazily processor intensive like lots of video rendering or have a SERIOUS dwarf fortress addiction there's not much point in screwing with your processor just to try and wring a few more GHz out of it.

I think those are called "tablets" these days, the facebook machine thing.

I built a facebook machine for my in-laws. They do the other usual home stuff like word, excel, publisher, and so on but it wasn't that intensive. That said I overbuilt it just because my father in-law won't replace a PC until it dies, TERMINALLY. His last PC was more than a decade old before he let me build a new one for him.

I will say this, that guy shot the moon with that rig in the article. He's dropping almost $1,700 on a rig and a lot of it is because he's buying stuff he really doesn't need. He calls it an "uncompromising HDTV" box which is... ok, it's stupid. HDTV isn't all that high res by PC gaming standards. So he's blowing a ton of cash on hardware to render graphics his TV can't display. Since he's making a dedicated gaming rig his CPU is overkill as again, modern games are far more dependent on your GPU. His video card is nice and shiny but again, you're only displaying 1080p so getting a card designed for dual monitors and at resolutions twice what you TV can pump out is just overkill.

The SSD, again, is picked not for power but because it's quiet and that's fine but for $400 you can get a 256 Gig SSD and 3 TB sized drives and if he can hear a hard drive across the living room it's because it's got a bad bearing. Also, Steam box. He's not thinking this through. Yes, modern games are getting bigger but the beauty of Steam is you only have to have the games you're playing installed on your computer. The rest can sit in the cloud until you want them. So you don't need a behemoth SSD to hold them all. I'm sure in five or six years you'll see a lot of builds that are pure SSD but right now I just don't think the price point is worth it.

Finally tack on the mobo needed to support that stuff and you've got a rig that is MASSIVE overkill for what he's after. If you've got the cash then go for it but for probably $800 you can build a rig that you couldn't tell the difference between the two once you were actually playing.

Tyyr wrote:

I have a 500GB hard drive that I'm using with my current computer. It is oldish so yeah I probably will want to get a new one in the future but I think its good for now.

*Shrug* That's up to you. Personally I don't trust old drives. Given how cheap storage is when I build a new computer I buy new drives, copy everything over, and use the drives for non-critical storage. My old 500GB drives are storing recorded TV right now. If one goes it's no big deal.

Yeah, I'm a little nervous myself, so there will only be applications on it. If it dies, no biggie, it was just games, I'll just reinstall.

And I don't have all that many games that I play so 256GB *might* be enough, we'll see..

I believe my current one is 650 watts.

PSU's lose some capacity over time so it's not likely 650 watts anymore. Still you need less than 300 for what you've got outlined here so it should be fine.

I see, good points.

Apologies if I sound wishy washy, but I just realized that one of my goals with this build was to do some kind of portable desktop mod thing. Something like this.

If that's what you're after then go for it. My only advice would be to make sure you've got good temperature readings on things like your CPU, GPU, and hard drives and be ready to drop your graphics levels if things get toasty.

So ATX is the best for cooling? I mean, mATX is only like a couple inches smaller than ATX.

But yeah mATX should be fine I think, though I could certainly go with ATX (since that's still smaller than my monitor) if I have to.

Also, is there some reason Newegg is preferred? I'd rather spend $183 on the CPU than $199, and with tax the amazon price will probably be around $200 anyway.

I like Newegg as they are laid out MUCH better, have better specs info, you get more intelligent reviews, and I've used them before with zero issues. If you can get a better deal with Amazon then go for it.

Indeed, much better organized. Amazon is cool but they sort of suck at organization. Its not bad, but its a little sloppy as is, at least for electronics.

I'd still use Newegg to hunt for what you need though then check Amazon for it.

LOL I do do that!

No problem. I've got an even bigger one on my computer at home. It's overkill and I know it. This though, $20 is not a bad price and Xigma makes good stuff. It should have no issues keeping an i5 cool, especially in the HAF case since the rear fan will be right in line with it.

Interesting. Never heard of Xigma. Though I've never built a system where I needed coolers.

Also, while we're on the topic of cooling, I can't wait for this to hit the shelves:

http://youtu.be/JWQZNXEKkaU

You really need to figure out what you're going to carry it around in first. I just really don't like what you have to give up for an ITX board. mTX lets you get pretty much everything an ATX board has but in a more compact form. If you don't mind working in a smaller chassis then an mTX is perfectly fine.

Yep. I'm still going for the small-tho-slightly-larger build.

Like I said the case (eventually, for now I'll get an matx case) will be built around my monitor, so the 23" sets the upper bounds on how big the electronics compartment can be.

It's a real good deal and if you get it with that promo you're getting $100 or a $120 worth of games with it. It's not the absolute top of the line but the guys dropping $500 on a video card are idiots when $200 will run any current gen game at 50+ FPS. Unless you're running some obscenely high res monitor or set up, then it might not be crazy. For one or two displays though, nuts.

LOL yeah, I hate it when I'm browsing amazon and I see these idiotically priced cards. I just think "Do I really need that??"

I mean cause if that's what you need for a gaming PC than I'll drop that cash on an Xbox instead, and let PC's die already.

But its nice that those aren't necessary.

I can't speak to the Linux issue with AMD's, that's gonna be research you'll have to do.

Yep.

Crucial is a good company, this a product right in their bread box, and 256GB for $160 is insane. I'd definitely grab it.

Nice.

Well first of all putting the heavy PSU on the bottom will make the case more stable. Secondly it'll be drawing in cool air from the bottom of the case to cool itself with instead of the hot stuff that's be rising through the machine. Admittedly you're not putting your CPU up there but you can put a big fat CPU cooler on that, you can't do much about the cooling for your PSU. That and with a case like the HAF you've go so much ventilation at the top its a non-issue. For me though, it's 90% about the stability.

I see. Fascinating.

The old 4 gigs? While it'll work, probably, I still think a computer like this needs 8 gigs of RAM. Even if you don't put it in now you're going to have to put it in later. May as well go all out now.

Probably so, good point.

I'll be honest with you, I don't think overclocking is necessary, even for hardcore gamers. With CPU and GPU speeds what they are and how biased games are today towards your GPU I just don't see how overclocking is worth it.

I wonder where the upper limit of all this will be. AFAIK CPU speeds are rather stagnent now at 3.x Ghz or so, maybe 4 if you overclock and have insanely good cooling.

I do understand the enjoyment out of taking something and doing something new with it but when I look at what it costs, just to do it and then to fix it if something busts, versus the benefit I just don't see it.

Well, to be honest, I wouldn't call overclocking "new" and "original" these days. Unless those guys managed to hit 5Ghz for like 10 seconds before the CPU melts..

Tyyr wrote:I will say this, that guy shot the moon with that rig in the article. He's dropping almost $1,700 on a rig and a lot of it is because he's buying stuff he really doesn't need. He calls it an "uncompromising HDTV" box which is... ok, it's stupid. HDTV isn't all that high res by PC gaming standards. So he's blowing a ton of cash on hardware to render graphics his TV can't display. Since he's making a dedicated gaming rig his CPU is overkill as again, modern games are far more dependent on your GPU. His video card is nice and shiny but again, you're only displaying 1080p so getting a card designed for dual monitors and at resolutions twice what you TV can pump out is just overkill.

The SSD, again, is picked not for power but because it's quiet and that's fine but for $400 you can get a 256 Gig SSD and 3 TB sized drives and if he can hear a hard drive across the living room it's because it's got a bad bearing. Also, Steam box. He's not thinking this through. Yes, modern games are getting bigger but the beauty of Steam is you only have to have the games you're playing installed on your computer. The rest can sit in the cloud until you want them. So you don't need a behemoth SSD to hold them all. I'm sure in five or six years you'll see a lot of builds that are pure SSD but right now I just don't think the price point is worth it.

Finally tack on the mobo needed to support that stuff and you've got a rig that is MASSIVE overkill for what he's after. If you've got the cash then go for it but for probably $800 you can build a rig that you couldn't tell the difference between the two once you were actually playing.

lol

I should mention I will also be playing at 1080p, just wanted to upgrade but didn't have cash (or the need really) for 2560x1440 resolutions.

So is the card you listed overkill for me ?

So ATX is the best for cooling? I mean, mATX is only like a couple inches smaller than ATX.

All things being equal, yes. In any kind of practical terms... ehh. A few more inches to spread things out will give better air flow around the components. However in practical terms you're not going to be talking much, maybe two or three degree's celcius and if you're running a rig where that difference of temp is the difference between running and shopping spree on Newegg you're in a totally different realm of computing than me. The case is going to be a much bigger factor between ATX, mATX, and ITX.

But yeah mATX should be fine I think, though I could certainly go with ATX (since that's still smaller than my monitor) if I have to.

Don't forget you have to put a PSU and drives in there so you need at least another 5 or 6 inches beyond the board for the PSU and you don't want it sitting right next to the GPU so give it an inch or two at least of space between them.

Indeed, much better organized. Amazon is cool but they sort of suck at organization. Its not bad, but its a little sloppy as is, at least for electronics.

Amazon's problem is that they got big and now they have every product under the sun being sold by hundreds of thousands of retailers making browsing a nightmare. I rarely browse on Amazon. I find out what I want elsewhere and then hit Amazon to price check.

LOL yeah, I hate it when I'm browsing amazon and I see these idiotically priced cards. I just think "Do I really need that??"

No. Bleeding edge cards are just that, bleeding edge. The represent the maximum of current technology. Think about it though, the developers started production on current gen games two, three, four years ago. They didn't have cards anywhere near current day bleeding edge back then. They could likely guess where they might be in the future but they have to design games to function on all kinds of hardware. After all, it can hurt sales if your game forces hardware upgrades to be playable. So current day bleeding edge hardware is massive overkill for current day games. Also, factor in how quickly new GPU's and cards are developed and last years bleeding edge is this years value card.

So what I do is look for stuff one to two generations behind the current bleeding edge. I usually hunt in the $200 to $250 range for a card. That'll get you a very good card that is only slightly off the pace for current cards. For current games that will get you ridiculous frame rates at max settings. That'll continue to get you tremendous frame rates at max settings for at least 2 years. You'll still get plenty high frame rates (anything over 30 FPS is just a dick measuring contest) for another year, maybe even two. I'm running a GTX 460 that even two and a half years after I bought it, and it wasn't a top of the line card then, still crushes everything I throw at it.

I wonder where the upper limit of all this will be. AFAIK CPU speeds are rather stagnent now at 3.x Ghz or so, maybe 4 if you overclock and have insanely good cooling.

It's a transistor density issue if I recall. We're bumping up against the limit of how tightly we can pack transistors with current tech. It's also an issue of how many individual processes do you run that really need all that horsepower (Dwarf Fortress excepted)? Real world computer use tends to be multi-tasking. On a regular night I'll be playing STO on one monitor while watching internet shows or TV on the other with a brower open also. A singular processor isn't going to like that. It's going to constantly be having to flip it's attention between processess. By utilizing more cores the processor can devote one 3.2 Ghz processor to STO, another to the TV tuner, and a third to the browser, while using the forth for random system processes that come up. Or if a program is set up for it the CPU can use multiple cores simultaneously on it. I'm fine with the speeds not really climbing all that much, I'd rather see more programs set up for hyper threading and get even more cores in my CPU to make use of it.

I should mention I will also be playing at 1080p, just wanted to upgrade but didn't have cash (or the need really) for 2560x1440 resolutions.

So is the card you listed overkill for me

Maybe a bit, but it's in the right price range so I'm hesitant to suggest you get less. Like I said, a card like this is going to last you two to three years easy. Downgrading will almost certainly drop you from 2GB of VRAM to 1 and to save maybe $50 on the card that's a hell of a loss.

I wonder where the upper limit of all this will be. AFAIK CPU speeds are rather stagnent now at 3.x Ghz or so, maybe 4 if you overclock and have insanely good cooling.

It's a transistor density issue if I recall. We're bumping up against the limit of how tightly we can pack transistors with current tech. It's also an issue of how many individual processes do you run that really need all that horsepower (Dwarf Fortress excepted)? Real world computer use tends to be multi-tasking. On a regular night I'll be playing STO on one monitor while watching internet shows or TV on the other with a brower open also. A singular processor isn't going to like that. It's going to constantly be having to flip it's attention between processess. By utilizing more cores the processor can devote one 3.2 Ghz processor to STO, another to the TV tuner, and a third to the browser, while using the forth for random system processes that come up. Or if a program is set up for it the CPU can use multiple cores simultaneously on it. I'm fine with the speeds not really climbing all that much, I'd rather see more programs set up for hyper threading and get even more cores in my CPU to make use of it.

Thankfully, clock speed isn't a measurement of real-world performance (though it is a component in determining it). Intel in particular has made steady gains in performance without big jumps in clock speed basically by designing more efficient architectures. The movement of the memory controller off the chipset onto the CPU package resulted in a nice boost by reducing latency, and many other smaller changes were made within the design of the cores. There has still been some modest boost to clock speeds though since the Core 2 duo/quad days: in particular the clock speed tax for a quad core has evaporated wherein you no longer get somewhat lower clock speeds with a quad core CPU than on dual cores. Multi-core CPUs have almost completely taken over the modern market (Intel's lowest of the low model of Celeron is still single core, otherwise even Atoms are dual cores these days).

Yeah, it would be great to see more software take advantage of multiple cores, though as I understand it this poses formidable coding challenges above and beyond those of traditional single-thread programming.

That said, what about the AMD/ATI route?

Is Intel really the pinnacle of performance for gaming, do I really need Intel, or can I stick with AMD? Obviously I ask cause AMD is cheaper.

Sure, benchmarks show Intel ahead of AMD but I mean, how does that really translate into the real world?

My current rig is an AMD and maybe I just need to upgrade the processor and such.


Current system:

AMD Phenom X2 545
4GB Gskill (Probably DDR3)
EVGA Geforce 9800GTX+


Yes, obviously its a few years old now.

You can build a capable gaming system around an AMD CPU; once a CPU/GPU combination can run some software smoothly (e.g., your games) extra power has diminishing value, at least for that particular game. It's always nice to have extra horsepower in stock for future needs. Still, you can see some crazy results in benchmarks from super high-end hardware that eats a game for lunch, 120 fps or something crazy which is more than a typical monitor can even display, which won't have much value except for bragging rights.

You still may need to change your MOBO even if you remain on the AMD side of the fence. You'll also have to pick from between a crazy assortment of lines: AMD's current lineup isn't exactly streamlined. There are the APU's under the A-series, using socket FM2 and including onboard graphics (though you'll use a discrete card anyway). Then there's the FX series, designed more around high multitasking and better optimized for server workloads than gaming according to some tests (this will use socket AM3+). There's still the "old school" Phenom II branding sticking around. Of course, you may want a MOBO upgrade anyway to gain access to newer features like tyyr mentioned (PCIe 3, USB3, SATA3).

There's nothing wrong with running an AMD build. Their processors are not up to par with Intel's but given what you can save by going with an AMD processor it may not matter all that much. The last computer I built was an AMD for my in-laws. Given what they were going to do and what they wanted to spend I went AMD and splurged a bit more on the other components.

I'd really caution against reusing the MOBO. We're at a point in hardware at the moment that you've got three important standards starting to come in big time, SATA3, USB3, and PCIe3. A computer without those is going to be limited. In other words don't expect to be able to just do some minor upgrades in a year or two. You're going to wind up needing to rebuild from the ground up. One big thing is if you want to go with an SSD you really need a SATA3 MOBO to take advantage of all it can offer. It's still going to be a fast drive under SATA2, but not what you're expecting, and for my money on SATA2 your main storage should probably be conventional drives with maybe a small SSD for your OS and a few main programs.

Captain Picard's Hair wrote:You can build a capable gaming system around an AMD CPU; once a CPU/GPU combination can run some software smoothly (e.g., your games) extra power has diminishing value, at least for that particular game. It's always nice to have extra horsepower in stock for future needs. Still, you can see some crazy results in benchmarks from super high-end hardware that eats a game for lunch, 120 fps or something crazy which is more than a typical monitor can even display, which won't have much value except for bragging rights.

Cool.

You still may need to change your MOBO even if you remain on the AMD side of the fence. You'll also have to pick from between a crazy assortment of lines: AMD's current lineup isn't exactly streamlined. There are the APU's under the A-series, using socket FM2 and including onboard graphics (though you'll use a discrete card anyway). Then there's the FX series, designed more around high multitasking and better optimized for server workloads than gaming according to some tests (this will use socket AM3+). There's still the "old school" Phenom II branding sticking around. Of course, you may want a MOBO upgrade anyway to gain access to newer features like tyyr mentioned (PCIe 3, USB3, SATA3).

That seems to be the case with all these manufacturers; its like they intentionally try to make it confounding.

So Phenom II is what they're calling even their new chips?

I'd really caution against reusing the MOBO. We're at a point in hardware at the moment that you've got three important standards starting to come in big time, SATA3, USB3, and PCIe3. A computer without those is going to be limited. In other words don't expect to be able to just do some minor upgrades in a year or two. You're going to wind up needing to rebuild from the ground up. One big thing is if you want to go with an SSD you really need a SATA3 MOBO to take advantage of all it can offer. It's still going to be a fast drive under SATA2, but not what you're expecting, and for my money on SATA2 your main storage should probably be conventional drives with maybe a small SSD for your OS and a few main programs.

Yeah, I can't find any AMD mobos that aren't around $150, so all in all, especially if the rest of the configuration remains the same, I'm not really saving all that much it seems.


Also, been looking at benchmarks.

This seems to be a decent CPU for the price/FPS ratio.

However, these benchmarks were taken with a weird screen res and on low!

Seems rather unhelpful. Why weren't they taken at 1080p on high at least?

Weird


So basically, if it gets 100+ FPS on low, it should get at least a decent framerate on high right?


Yeah, and based on =on&prod[5802]=on&prod[5797]=on]THIS, really why would I go with a more expensive CPU when its true GPU's really are more important (for the most part)?


No comprende.

So Phenom II is what they're calling even their new chips?

Well, one line of them. As I noted there are other, new lines of AMD chips with different features and sockets.

Yeah, I can't find any AMD mobos that aren't around $150, so all in all, especially if the rest of the configuration remains the same, I'm not really saving all that much it seems.

I think I meant to say here that I couldn't find any AMD motherboards <$150 or so with PCIE 3.0 x16.

So if I go AMD it would mean sticking with the current generation of PCIE.

Well, one line of them. As I noted there are other, new lines of AMD chips with different features and sockets.

I see.