Immigration Wait Times

[Mark]

Wow, I can't believe I'm chiming in on this.

Ok, here is my personal take. The USA is not "public property". Why should we accept people who are going to immedietly go onto public assistance, so the country can support them?

Lets be real, we can argue morality later. Who would contribute more to the country as a whole?

Lets look at it this way....
A doctor wants to move to the US to head up a Cardiology Department. He has the means to house himself, feed himself, and marketible skills he can use to improve the overall quality of life for the US as a whole.

A family of five with no education, skills, family, or place to live wants to move to the US. What is gonna happen? The father and mother pack up and leave and become US citizens. What's gonna happen when they get here? At best they go into the system and get government assistance, which to some poorer countries make them feel rich, so why work? At worst, they become homeless and potentially risk a life of crime.

I know people in Hawaii from a Pacific Island that shall remain nameless. I asked one why they don't have a job. He flat out said, "Why should I work? I get more from welfare and food stamps than if I worked a job at home." How does this person benifet our society as a whole?

[stitch626]

but it also clearly points out what is the real problem: unemployed people would rather sit on their arse rather than go do these jobs they feel is beneath them.

You obviously have no idea what its like to be unemployed. At this point I'd go for flipping burgers. But since real people don't look at applications anymore (all done by a computer), I have gotten a total of 1 interview for almost 300 applications. And that job I wasn't qualified for (no management experience).

[Tyyr]

This is either accidentally tangential or intentionally red-herring-ish. The point has nothing to do with convincing people of anything; rather, that your prior argument that "America considers the American way to be best" isn't in fact an argument for uncontrolled immigration, but simply a natural quality of humanity. That very fact is why people do vote and do engage in debate.

However, the fact that I say "I'm an American and I like America" is not the same as "please emigrate to America and expect no control over the issue at all."

At what point have I ever said no control? I said no quota on the number of people we allow to immigrate. If a guy's got a rap sheet a mile long and a kilo of coke in his jacket we're not going to let him in. This is about not turning away people just because we reached an arbitrary number.

Personally I think that if we're going to export our way of life and government, brag about how great it is, we are going to have to accept that people might listen and want to join. Why should we turn them away?

It's a very good argument, but it also clearly points out what is the real problem: unemployed people would rather sit on their arse rather than go do these jobs they feel is beneath them. I do not think making up for the lack of unskilled willing labor with immigration is a good thing, as the 2nd generation of these immigrants will just be as poor and probably as unlikely to get off their arse to do the work, since they will be cleared for social welfare.

Once the first generation are citizens they're cleared for social welfare. If they just wanted to go on the dole they could, but they don't. And from what I've seen they usually teach their children the same work ethic.

Again, from what I have seen the problem isn't with immigrants, or children of immigrants, if fifth, six, eighth generation Americans who just say, "Fuck it," and go on handouts. I don't see that as an immigration problem so much as issue with welfare. And lets not kid ourselves. We're paying for many services for illegals already, the difference being that if they were legal they'd be paying taxes.

Hmm.. no, what I meant is, I don't believe the US should automatically be a country with more open borders when it comes to immigration than other countries. That's the basic principle. Now, the US might want to open or close their border because of circumstancial economic motivations (ex: massive labor shortage/overflow), but not based on "The US should be a land free for immigrants!". You don't run a country with nice slogans.

No you don't, but you do run a country based off your principles and let those guide your policy decisions. Once again I also have to point out that I never said an open border just let whoever wants to come over. I'm saying the quotas should be removed. The quotas are directly responsible for illegal immigration because we make it almost impossible for people to do it legally.

that being said, as you pointed out, there is a need of labor in the US right now for the immigrants coming over from the mexican border. I do not know exactly what is the economical reason (need of competitiveness on the part of business owner motivates paying smaller salaries?), but the point is: there is a paradoxal unbalance of available jobs. The people come to the US for find job, which they DO, even if the country is running as very high unemployment rate at the moment. That is a big problem, as uncontrolled and unreported labor is tax income loss for the government, and these workforce are more likely to be treated like dirt, which is simply disgusting.

The people are coming. We know they are. The presence of quotas doesn't prevent people from coming illegally it encourages it. And like you say, when they come over illegally they don't enjoy the protections that a legal worker does, they don't get paid like one does, and they don't get taxed like one does. The people who want to come aren't coming and going on the dole, THEY CAN'T. They come and get shit jobs working long hours for little pay because they want to be here. Someone willing to bust their ass in an orchard picking oranges for $3 an hour isn't the kind of person you want to keep out of the country they're the kind of person you want coming.

Yes, because at the time, you badly needed the additional population and labor pool over most spectrum of labor avalable (factory worker, land owner, farmer, entrepreneur, etc...). It's not the case anymore, as your country changed its economical fundamentals.

We're not an agrarian country anymore, or even a manufacturing country, we're an IT country but that doesn't mean that every job in the country can be done sitting in front of a computer or requires a college degree. You still need people who are willing to pick grapes, scrub toilets, build houses, lay carpet, or any one of numerous other professions that immigrants

Wow, I can't believe I'm chiming in on this.

Ok, here is my personal take. The USA is not "public property". Why should we accept people who are going to immediately go onto public assistance, so the country can support them?

I really need to find some statistics as right now all I can do is argue from personal experience. My experience with immigrants has almost always been good, even exceptional. The guys who work for me during mainteance outages are almost all Central and Southern European immigrants and they are the hardest working sons of bitches I have ever met. They come out, they bust their asses for six hours straight, take a half hour lunch, then six more hours of busting ass. They get done in a shift what a union crew would take a week to do. I've got a lot of family in construction and they have the same thing, the immigrants are just plain harder workers. Where I used to live I'd drive by the welfare office to and from my way to work, not a lot of hispanics standing outside.

Lets be real, we can argue morality later. Who would contribute more to the country as a whole?

Depends on what you consider contributing. Yeah, your cardiologist is going to make more money, but I need my work crews to keep my power plant running. If I don't have those crews I have to use people who take longer and cost more. Those costs go back to the consumer. So while my insulation guy might only make $35,000 a year he's saving everyone in my service area a couple bucks a year.

A family of five with no education, skills, family, or place to live wants to move to the US. What is gonna happen? The father and mother pack up and leave and become US citizens. What's gonna happen when they get here? At best they go into the system and get government assistance, which to some poorer countries make them feel rich, so why work? At worst, they become homeless and potentially risk a life of crime.

Here's the thing Mark, they're coming. Our current way of doing things isn't keeping these people from immigrating. All it's doing is preventing them from doing it legally, removing any safety net, making them a net drain on our resources, and making the life of crime scenario more likely.

So can I ask what the point of this thread is?

Information, spark a debate, pretty much what it's done.

[Deepcrush]

but it also clearly points out what is the real problem: unemployed people would rather sit on their arse rather than go do these jobs they feel is beneath them.

You obviously have no idea what its like to be unemployed. At this point I'd go for flipping burgers. But since real people don't look at applications anymore (all done by a computer), I have gotten a total of 1 interview for almost 300 applications. And that job I wasn't qualified for (no management experience).

You should try going in and talking to someone at the places you're applying at. That helps a lot so that you aren't just leaving it up to a computer.

As to Immigration Laws and the effects... If they want in then they should be bringing some skill to the table when they show up. If not then give them the boot. This country already has enough trouble with its own citizens that cause problems, we don't need to be sucking up the problems of others.

[Mikey]

Personally I think that if we're going to export our way of life and government, brag about how great it is, we are going to have to accept that people might listen and want to join. Why should we turn them away?

OK, our government doesn't export anything of the sort. American businesses do, but that's got two things to do with what our government does in the way of immigration: jack and shit.

You know what? If people think America is great, then good. I take that as a compliment. You know what else? Just because you want something doesn't mean you can always have it. People may want to come to America, but that want doesn't necessarily entitle them to come to America. I want a pound of twenties, but that doesn't entitle me to just go and take it from a local bank branch.

[Mark]

I see your point about them coming in the country illegally. But let me ask you this. Drug smugglers bring drugs across the boarders at an alarming rate. Do we ease up on the laws saying their coming over regardless, we may as well legalize them.....or do we make tougher laws and enforce them more rigorously.

[Captain Seafort]

Drug smugglers bring drugs across the boarders at an alarming rate. Do we ease up on the laws saying their coming over regardless, we may as well legalize them.....or do we make tougher laws and enforce them more rigorously.

Or do you do what the Dutch have done and your next-door (or at least as close to "next-door" as you've got) neighbours have tried do do, and distinguish between those drugs which cause serious harm, and those with a lesser effect.

Or decriminalise the lot, as our former Defence Secretary reckons.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Drug smugglers bring drugs across the boarders at an alarming rate. Do we ease up on the laws saying their coming over regardless, we may as well legalize them.....or do we make tougher laws and enforce them more rigorously.

Or do you do what the Dutch have done and your next-door (or at least as close to "next-door" as you've got) neighbours have tried do do, and distinguish between those drugs which cause serious harm, and those with a lesser effect.

Or decriminalise the lot, as our former Defence Secretary reckons.

Agreed. Some drugs' criminalisation cause more problems than the drug itself.

In the same way, persecuting illegal border crossing just causes more problem than it tries to solve.

[Mark]

There are ways to secure our boarders if we really wanted too. But the bleeding hearts don't want to do it. And the idea of tossing an illegal immigrant into prison is nuts too. We still have to support them.

That's my biggest problem with illegals. They benifet from living in the States, but have none of the obligations the rest of us do. They don't pay taxes, nor can even be drafted to military service. We're obliged to defend their civil rights (ie police), provide medical care and so on.

[SolkaTruesilver]

There are ways to secure our boarders if we really wanted too. But the bleeding hearts don't want to do it. And the idea of tossing an illegal immigrant into prison is nuts too. We still have to support them.

That's my biggest problem with illegals. They benifet from living in the States, but have none of the obligations the rest of us do. They don't pay taxes, nor can even be drafted to military service. We're obliged to defend their civil rights (ie police), provide medical care and so on.

Illegal aliens get medical care from the US government? They actually have civil rights?

It was my impression that it wasn't the case, like, at all. Unless you show me otherwise, I won't believe it. Illegal aliens simply have no right and can get arrested if they are found out.

(And your argument about a draft is stupid. When was the last time a draft occured in the US? US military have evolved to a point where having prisonner-soldiers is actually detrimental to the whole esprit de corp)

[Captain Seafort]

The problem the US has with illegals, compared with the UK, is the expense of securing your border. Two thousand miles of empty desert is a damn sight more difficult to defend than a few chokepoints at the major ports, even with the Chunnel. The only way you'd truly be able to secure your border would be with ungodly numbers of people, which would risk spending more to fix the problem than you loose from it.

[SolkaTruesilver]

The problem the US has with illegals, compared with the UK, is the expense of securing your border. Two thousand miles of empty desert is a damn sight more difficult to defend than a few chokepoints at the major ports, even with the Chunnel. The only way you'd truly be able to secure your border would be with ungodly numbers of people, which would risk spending more to fix the problem than you loose from it.

Or, you know, a frakking big wall. They can always hire Israeli subcontractor to build it, they have experience in the matter.

[Deepcrush]

Or, you know, a frakking big wall. They can always hire Israeli subcontractor to build it, they have experience in the matter.

While that may even work if supported properly... I have a major problem with just building a massive wall around the country.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Or, you know, a frakking big wall. They can always hire Israeli subcontractor to build it, they have experience in the matter.

While that may even work if supported properly... I have a major problem with just building a massive wall around the country.

Didn't work for the Chinese. (just saying)

What if they promise they will allow inflows of Fajitas, Tequilla and Mariachi bands?

[Deepcrush]

Maybe you should leave the jokes to someone who is funny.