"Canadian" vs "Quebecois"

[SolkaTruesilver]

But you wouldn't refer to a Scot as an English, right?

Not if you wanted to keep all your teeth.

However, I wouldn't call you an Ontarian either.

Well, that's the problem with Canada. We have a default name for both the country and the main culture. Saying that we are Canadian as a people is to renege on our Quebecois identity.

What "main culture"? As SG pointed out, the culture of Nunavut and Toronto are very different. There is no homogeneous "Canadian" culture outside Quebec

Nunavut is Native American mostly, so it doesn't really count.

"Main Culture" = School system, law system, tv channels, hospital system. Outside of Quebec, they are almost all english-speaking, Anglo-saxon based system. Quebec's law system isn't based on Common Law, our school system is quite different than the "Canadians". Ontario and B.C. have much more and common than Ontario and Quebec. Hell, Ontario and some american states probably have more in common than Ontario and Quebec, when it comes to popular culture.

The language barrier is huge. The books you have read when you were young, I haven't. Catcher in the Rye? Ariet the Spy? Dr Seuss? I heard about those in my very very late teens. That's one helluva cultural separation. I was into Boule et Bill, Gaston Lagaffe, and other french-based comics, tv shows and books.

Would you believe that I only learned of the existence of Monty Python about 4 years ago? but don't worry, we have our own Quebec Comedians (which are top-notch), but sadly, no one outside of Quebec ever, ever heard of them... except maybe in France, if they went for some tours (many of them are quite a hit over there).

[Captain Seafort]

Nunavut is Native American mostly, so it doesn't really count.

That's the fucking point, stupid.

"Main Culture" = School system, law system, tv channels, hospital system. Outside of Quebec, they are almost all english-speaking, Anglo-saxon based system. Quebec's law system isn't based on Common Law, our school system is quite different than the "Canadians". Ontario and B.C. have much more and common than Ontario and Quebec. Hell, Ontario and some american states probably have more in common than Ontario and Quebec, when it comes to popular culture.

Have you been reading anything we've written? Scotland has different systems of government, taxation, law and schooling to the rest of the UK. It is it part of the UK and the Scots are still British.

The language barrier is huge.

As it is for the Belgians and the Swiss, to name but two multilingual countries. They're still Belgians and Swiss.

[Sionnach Glic]

There was, but they shut up somewhat after RBS had to be pumped full of English taxes to stop it collapsing.

Heh, that's one way to stop a seccesionist movement.

Look on the bright side - at least these day it would require less than a full infantry battalion to put a stop to said bar fight.

Progress!

Nunavut is Native American mostly, so it doesn't really count.

That's precisely the point I was making. The people of Nunavut have a far different culture to the people of Ontario. Yet someone from Nunavut would still be called a Canadian.

"Main Culture" = School system, law system, tv channels, hospital system.

As has Scotland. Hell, Scotland even has its own parliament.

The language barrier is huge.

And English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh are all pretty different to each other. That didn't stop Kings with a lot of money and soldiers turning up in each of those countries and informing the locals that they were all British.

Would you believe that I only learned of the existence of Monty Python about 4 years ago? but don't worry, we have our own Quebec Comedians (which are top-notch), but sadly, no one outside of Quebec ever, ever heard of them... except maybe in France, if they went for some tours (many of them are quite a hit over there).

You know, cultural isolation is hardly a good thing.

Is English not taught in schools in Quebec? It is over here, even in the regions of Ireland where Irish is the predominant language.

[Mikey]

Here it is, once and for all. There is a nation whose offical English-language name, according to the UN, is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland." That is the name of the nation. Said "Great Britain" comprises Scotland, Wales, and England. Ergo, any person who hails from Wales, Scotland, or England can rightly be called "British." It would be incorrect to call a Scot "English," or a Welshman... well, it would be incorrect to call him anything at all in an intelligible language.

You, Solka, are most definitely a Canadian. The meaning of that term is "someone who comes from Canada." I don't know if anyone told you, but the Quebecois have not yet successfully seceded from the rest of Canada. I come from a nation known as "the United States of America," for which the common parlance is "American." While my day-to-day life, culture, accent, etc., etc., is enormously different from someone from another part of the country, would you consider yourself incorrect for calling me an American? No, of course you wouldn't. If you want to be as particular about how you address people as demanding to be known as "Quebecois" because you are distinct from other Canadians, then you would never address any American as "American." Rather, you would call me a "Jewish-American of Galician and Litvak descent;" et. al.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Can you tards at least answer one point?

I agree that Scots are British. That it's proper to call them Brits. That they won't take offense to that.

However, if you have two culture in a single country. That overall country has a name, but that name is also the dominant's culture name. In that case, "Canada". The UK are lucky, since you have "Brits", which isn't discriminatory to Welsh, Scots, Irish, Englishes (do I forget someone?) in it's appelation. It's an integral denomination.

In Canada, there are "Canadians" and "Quebecois" as the mainstream cultures (natives are just too small a minority to be qualified "mainstream", and even then, they are already acknowledged as a completely different culture and people than the Canadians or Quebecois. Plus they aren't much of a mass-cultural producers, and they tend to speak english and gets culturally assimilated by the Canadian culture).

Since we do not have a different word to differenciate between the Canadian culture and the Canadian country, all of them defined as "Canadian", should Quebecois automatically accept to be designated as a Canadian? I do not speak about Country/citizenship, but about cultural attachment. Remember, we were talking about a culture, and how that culture relates to other. That was the starting point of this conversation, and somebody adressed me as "Canadian". "Canada" isn't my culture, it's my country. If you want to talk about my culture, call me Quebecois. Canadian is merely my citizenship.

You know, cultural isolation is hardly a good thing.

Is English not taught in schools in Quebec? It is over here, even in the regions of Ireland where Irish is the predominant language.

Cultural identity is hardly a bad thing either. We are about 6 million French-speaking Quebecois, sorrounded by more than 300 million english-speaking Canadian, Americans and First Nations. We have been under the economical heel of said english-speaking majority for the larger part of our history. We could see the effect of cultural assimilation, trying to make us speak english and lose one of the defining element of my people.

English is taught in school, the fact that I can type to you today is the proof of it. I spoke english as early as 14. Watching Star Trek at 16.

Cultural isolation goes both way. How about you taking up Rock et Belles Oreilles? Want me to give you some of our finest Comedian's shows? Or our best movies, those who won oscars or international prizes? They are darn good.

But I don't think any english-speaking native can trully understand the feeling of seeing your culture being assimilated and loosing its root. The common english-speaking reaction is merely "so what? Speak english!". It's easy to be easygoing about it when your language is the established Langua Franca.

Well, any english-speaking, except maybe some Southern States of the USA, which are afraid of losing their cultural identity as an English-speaking land. Funny, how all of North America decried Quebec's action to protect its french culture in the 80's and 90's, but when the US state does it to protect English against Spanish, it's a-ok.

You know what makes me laugh? When a Brit tells me: "If X hadn't happened, we would all be speaking German now!". My reaction is: "Yhea, so what? I'm speaking english now".

[SolkaTruesilver]

Rather, you would call me a "Jewish-American of Galician and Litvak descent;" et. al.

If you feel it's important to you, because that part of your culture is important to you, then I will call you Jewish-American of Galician and Litvak descent, man. This isn't your nationality we're talking about, it's your culture. Your primary culture, the one that you integrated and makes you think. Do you celebrate the 4th of July?

You watched Jew shows, one that would teach you about the values of the Jew-Americans of Galician and Litvak descent? Teach you their history, get to know their artists and celebrity?

I don't celebrate the 1st of July (Canada Day). I celebrate the 24th of June (Saint-Jean-Baptiste). I know Remy Girard, I have no idea who the best Canadian actor evar is (although, there is probably a reason to that. The best Quebecois actors stay in Quebec and become a legend among us. The best Canadian actors go to Hollywood and becomes pseudo-American stars. Go Pamela!)

[Sionnach Glic]

EDIT: Looking back over the thread I think you and I have been talking past each-other, Solka.

We're in agreement that Quebecois is a term that can be used to define a distinct and culturaly different region of Canada.
We're in agreement that "Canadian" is the correct term for anyone who was born in the country of Canada.

Yes on both of the above? Then this has been a long and pointless interlude in the thread. But, hell, debating for the sake of debating isn't necessarily a bad thing.

But I don't think any english-speaking native can trully understand the feeling of seeing your culture being assimilated and loosing its root.

Given that my own people's culture, traditions, sports and even its language were subject to deliberate efforts utterly eradicate them, to the point where even now my native language can only be spoken by a small fraction of my fellow citizens, and that my country has not even been free of foreign control for less than a century (and even then a nice chunk of it is still part of the United Kingdom).....yes, I think I very much understand the feeling of seeing one's culture teetering on the edge of going the way of the feathery fellow that is my avatar.

You know what makes me laugh? When a Brit tells me: "If X hadn't happened, we would all be speaking German now!". My reaction is: "Yhea, so what? I'm speaking english now".

To be honest I've never heard a Brit say that. It tends to be Americans with the atitude of "if we hadn't saved Europe then you'd all be under German control".

Of course, if they knew an ounce of history they'd realise that we'd all still be speaking our own languages.....and waving red flags around.

[Reliant121]

I'd rather like speaking German actually, I admire many qualities about Germany as much as I may joke about the damn krauts ( )

[Captain Seafort]

In Canada, there are "Canadians" and "Quebecois" as the mainstream cultures

Wrong. Regardless of your attempts to brush it under the rug, First Nations culture is considerably different from the culture of the major cities, the prairies or Quebec. Canada has far more different cultural groups than just Quebec and everyone else.

Since we do not have a different word to differenciate between the Canadian culture and the Canadian country, all of them defined as "Canadian", should Quebecois automatically accept to be designated as a Canadian?

Yes. You have a Canadian passport (if any). You pay taxes to Ottawa. You are part of Canada. Get over it.

That was the starting point of this conversation, and somebody adressed me as "Canadian". "Canada" isn't my culture, it's my country. If you want to talk about my culture, call me Quebecois. Canadian is merely my citizenship.

"Canadian" is your cultural background just as much as "Quebec" is. Just as a Scot's cultural background is British just as much as it is Scottish. One is a subset of the other.

I don't celebrate the 1st of July (Canada Day). I celebrate the 24th of June (Saint-Jean-Baptiste).

And if I were Canadian I'd celebrate 13th September and 9th April.

[Deepcrush]

So what started this rant???

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

The language barrier is huge. The books you have read when you were young, I haven't. Catcher in the Rye? Ariet the Spy? Dr Seuss? I heard about those in my very very late teens. That's one helluva cultural separation. I was into Boule et Bill, Gaston Lagaffe, and other french-based comics, tv shows and books.

Would you believe that I only learned of the existence of Monty Python about 4 years ago? but don't worry, we have our own Quebec Comedians (which are top-notch), but sadly, no one outside of Quebec ever, ever heard of them... except maybe in France, if they went for some tours (many of them are quite a hit over there).

I'm an American and I haven't seen a full minute of American Idol, Survivor or a large portion of recent TV shows.

You're Canadian. It's not a bad thing. My grandmother Rose, God bless her soul, was from Quebec.

[Reliant121]

To Deep: I think Solka wanted to be referred to by his cultural heritage (Quebecois), instead of his national or at least internationally recognised one (Canadian).

[Deepcrush]

To Deep: I think Solka wanted to be referred to by his cultural heritage (Quebecois), instead of his national or at least internationally recognised one (Canadian).

If you live in Canada, pay taxes to Canada, are listed as a citizen of Canada... You are Canadian.

[Mikey]

OK, I'm gonna go in a bit of reverse order...

You watched Jew shows, one that would teach you about the values of the Jew-Americans of Galician and Litvak descent? Teach you their history, get to know their artists and celebrity?

Absolutely! Let me clarify something here: many people have told me that Judaism is a religion, not a culture. However, European Judaism lived in Christian-controlled lands for many, many years, while being culturally isolated (when not being attacked and slaughtered.) Thusly, European Judaism developed a cultural identity quite distinct from that of the religion itself, including its own language which has little to do with Judaism's ecclesiastical language. Of course, Eastern European Jewish culture bears many similarities to Ukrainian, Polish, Baltic, and even Caucasian/Moldavan cultures - I can order in a Polish restaurant based on my knowledge of Yiddish names of different foods, for example.

Now: With Judaism as a strong part of my cultural heritage - yes, I sometimes watch shows about the Jewish faith or culture; yes, I read books about that part of my ancestral culture; yes, I watch movies and plays based in Yiddish culture; yes, I eat foods that are specific to that culture.

Do you celebrate the 4th of July?

Damn straight I do. I am a citizen of America, and proud to be one. That does not mean in any way, shape, or form that I can't celebrate my ancestral culture.

But I don't think any english-speaking native can trully understand the feeling of seeing your culture being assimilated and loosing its root. The common english-speaking reaction is merely "so what? Speak english!". It's easy to be easygoing about it when your language is the established Langua Franca.

Utter self-serving bullshit. My wife is one-eighth Leni Lenape, and we can still trace neighborhoods in our state that were named after members of that branch of her family. Since they were named, though, they've been owned by the white folks who took them. Ask Tsukiyumi about his NAN ancestry, and what the European invaders did to them. I have family members whose only remains were the smoke particles which flew over Theriesenstadt because of an attempt to eradicate their entire ethnic group. The fact that you choose not to embrace part of your cultural birthright or identify yourself with the country of which you are a citizen is fine; but it doesn't mean that Quebec is somehow magically its own sovereign nation.

Here's how it is - you are a citizen of Canada - ergo, you are a Canadian. You may choose to refer to yourself when speaking culturally as Quebecois, and that's fine with me; but when we discuss a person's nationality, you are Canadian as much as I am American and Seafort is British (and English. )

[shran]

I know Remy Girard, I have no idea who the best Canadian actor evar is (although, there is probably a reason to that. The best Quebecois actors stay in Quebec and become a legend among us. The best Canadian actors go to Hollywood and becomes pseudo-American stars. Go Pamela!)

You know you should answer that that would be William Shatner. He's even born in Quebec.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Shatner