"Burn A Quran Day" Criticised By US Military

[Tyyr]

It does raise an interesting question though. It is not like anyone ever gets up in arms when some group burns American Flags and says something along the lines of "man, this may get a bunch of our people over in the US killed". Its just an interesting way to think about it.

You can't possibly be suggesting that we're not the borderline psychotic bigots everyone knows we are can you?

[SolkaTruesilver]

I'm rather dubious about that, Solka. For one, a country like the US has 300+ million inhabitants. In said culture will be people with a massive difference of opinion. Some will see the US as superior, others will see other nations as superior. Additionaly, how does that model apply to, say, the Roman Empire? At its height it was hardly imitating Barbarian culture and customs. Yet at the same time there were plenty of barbarian tribes who voluntarily intergrated into the Empire.

Modern day societies are so large and diverse that I'd be very dubious about ascribing to black/white views of what "stage" of culture a nation is at. Take the USA for example.

*rest of argument*

You make a very good point, but you have to admit that a society, as diverse at it may be, still have a general trend that is considered acceptable in its general media. The tone you will hear from U.K. newstations compared to U.S. newstation will be of different tone.

While it is a generalisation and broad statement, it doesn't mean it's not true. While there are people of every political spectrum in the U.S., I think it's safe to say the people in the U.S. are generally more conservative than the ones in the U.K. or Canada. The same could be said regarding cultural outlook.

The U.S. have this paradigm of "God Bless America". "The American Way". "Manifest Destiny", etc.. that is very self-centric. The U.S. is very resistant to any outside cultural influence, as you can see by their choices of sports compared to the rest of the world. Also, they even start to put a point of honor regarding being fan of American Football over "European Soccer". I think this is symptomatic of a culture that think of itself as the superior one.

So the French have been stuck here since forever... so they have not grown at all.

Actually, you can say that the French are on the opposite end of the scale. Beyond with the classic francophobia all english speaking countries have, you would be surprised to see the behavior of the french Elite. It is "in" to commonly use english buzzwords, and they start to more and more use english words instead of perfectly good french ones. This is a sign of cultural decadence, when the other culture is the "in". French who have the opportunity prefer to study in english-speaking programs, even if they attend French schools. They try to emulate american movies even if they don't have the budget.

While they might resent Americans/English on political term, they are clearly looking up to American culture and are generally in a moment of decadence. Remember, this isn't about politics, but cultural outlook.

[Sionnach Glic]

It does raise an interesting question though. It is not like anyone ever gets up in arms when some group burns American Flags and says something along the lines of "man, this may get a bunch of our people over in the US killed". Its just an interesting way to think about it.

I'd say it's due to the different perceptions of the countries in question. If people in, say, Syria burn a bunch of US flags people shrug and ignore it, as it's pretty much expected from them. When people in the US do it, it has a different reaction due to people expecting America in general to be above that sort of behaviour.

It's a big double-standard, I agree, but it's more or less down to the way that America tries to present itself to the rest of the world.

[SolkaTruesilver]

It does raise an interesting question though. It is not like anyone ever gets up in arms when some group burns American Flags and says something along the lines of "man, this may get a bunch of our people over in the US killed". Its just an interesting way to think about it.

I'd say it's due to the different perceptions of the countries in question. If people in, say, Syria burn a bunch of US flags people shrug and ignore it, as it's pretty much expected from them. When people in the US do it, it has a different reaction due to people expecting America in general to be above that sort of behaviour.

It's a big double-standard, I agree, but it's more or less down to the way that America tries to present itself to the rest of the world.

Also, it provides a very good excuse for the double standard: "Israel bombed a city in Iran today in retaliation for the missile launch that caused 2 victims. There has been at least 50 reported Syrian death for now, but don't worry, they were the kind of people who celebrated while burning an american flag"

It provide a good excuse to demonise people and make their death seem less horrific when you let them burn your flag. You effectively make them... inconsequent. (Good choice of word?)

[Mikey]

For good or ill, the U.S. is currently the Big Man on Campus. With that status, the global community will tend to naturally assume that we should just weather the slings and arrows that come with it. Any sitting U.S. president suffers more verbal abuse and criticism from people he has never met than anyone else in the country - but it is expected that a man in his position suck it up. The U.S. is no different.

Further, Petraeus' comment wasn't directed at the morality of this act, or the American ideal of tolerance, or the simple fact that the Qu'ran is holy Scripture for far more groups than the ones who practice terrorism - it was simply a pragmatic appeal to not do something that could get Americans killed. I think it's very telling that this nut job heard Petraeus' request and declined - it means he considers his own self-aggrandizement more important than American lives.

Actually, you can say that the French are on the opposite end of the scale. Beyond with the classic francophobia all english speaking countries have, you would be surprised to see the behavior of the french Elite. It is "in" to commonly use english buzzwords, and they start to more and more use english words instead of perfectly good french ones. This is a sign of cultural decadence, when the other culture is the "in". French who have the opportunity prefer to study in english-speaking programs, even if they attend French schools. They try to emulate american movies even if they don't have the budget.

While they might resent Americans/English on political term, they are clearly looking up to American culture and are generally in a moment of decadence. Remember, this isn't about politics, but cultural outlook.

You are French-Canadien, correct? If you're talking about the adoption of English jargon into the language of that group, I'd call that as much an organic outgrowth of the fact of being completely surrounded and forcible exposed to an English-speaking country for centuries, as much as anything else. As far as idolizing American culture, everybody around the world does - not because of any decision of rightness or wrongness, but because at the moment, the average American citizen sits amaxingly fat compared to most world citizens.

[SolkaTruesilver]

You are French-Canadien, correct? If you're talking about the adoption of English jargon into the language of that group, I'd call that as much an organic outgrowth of the fact of being completely surrounded and forcible exposed to an English-speaking country for centuries, as much as anything else. As far as idolizing American culture, everybody around the world does - not because of any decision of rightness or wrongness, but because at the moment, the average American citizen sits amaxingly fat compared to most world citizens.

I am French-Canadian, but I wasn't talking about Quebec (please adress me as Quebecois), I was talking about France.

And it's not idolizing your lifestyle (which is anybody's dream anyway, by virtue of being supreme material possession), but trying to do things the American's Way, believing that your own culture isn't sufficient. People around the world aren't necessarely that interested in American culture save their blockbuster and some music.

[Sionnach Glic]

Also, it provides a very good excuse for the double standard: "Israel bombed a city in Iran today in retaliation for the missile launch that caused 2 victims. There has been at least 50 reported Syrian death for now, but don't worry, they were the kind of people who celebrated while burning an american flag"

It provide a good excuse to demonise people and make their death seem less horrific when you let them burn your flag. You effectively make them... inconsequent. (Good choice of word?)

At the same time that very perception is why Israel tends to be so heavily criticised while people just shrug when their enemies do the same. Israel is seen as being of the "Western World". This automaticaly means they should do no wrong and be peaceful and just and fair to both their citizens and their neighbours. The countries bordering them, on the other hand, are of the "Islamic World". This automaticaly means that suicide bombings, using schools to launch rockets from, abducting and killing innocents, etc, are not surprising in the least.

It's simply down to the stereotyping of different cultural groups, in the exact same manner some might stereotype individual blacks, whites, jews, etc. Culturism, perhaps?

[SolkaTruesilver]

At the same time that very perception is why Israel tends to be so heavily criticised while people just shrug when their enemies do the same. Israel is seen as being of the "Western World". This automaticaly means they should do no wrong and be peaceful and just and fair to both their citizens and their neighbours. The countries bordering them, on the other hand, are of the "Islamic World". This automaticaly means that suicide bombings, using schools to launch rockets from, abducting and killing innocents, etc, are not surprising in the least.

Actually, this is very true. This is the point I bring up every time somebody brings up the fact that we are more critic of Israel than of her ennemies. But they always forget something:

We expect Israel to be better than her ennemies. We consider her a fully-grown western society, and we treat her with Western-society privileges. A Syrian is gonna have a lot more trouble going to the States than an Israelian, because of easier diplomatic channels. It's easier to proceed trade between Israel and the U.S. (or Canada) than between Syria and the U.S., because of trade treaties established.

There are advantages to being treated like a responsible western societies. Tangible advantages. But they come at a cost, and this cost is behaving like a civilised country, which means don't go fucking bomb civilian homes, hospitals, schools and the like when the only thing you are facing is makeshift blind-fire rocket launchers.

[BigJKU316]

It does raise an interesting question though. It is not like anyone ever gets up in arms when some group burns American Flags and says something along the lines of "man, this may get a bunch of our people over in the US killed". Its just an interesting way to think about it.

I'd say it's due to the different perceptions of the countries in question. If people in, say, Syria burn a bunch of US flags people shrug and ignore it, as it's pretty much expected from them. When people in the US do it, it has a different reaction due to people expecting America in general to be above that sort of behaviour.

It's a big double-standard, I agree, but it's more or less down to the way that America tries to present itself to the rest of the world.

Sadly in the US people have the right to speak freely. I don't agree with what they have to say (in fact I think its stupid and childish) but if protecting the right to freely speak ones views on issues means US troops or even myself might be targeted by the other side and killed I can live with it as the price for living in a democratic society.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Oh.

can I have your opinion about something? What do you think of this event, "Burn a Quran Day", compared to another event that had been proposed (also in the U.S.), "Draw Muhammad Day"?

[Tsukiyumi]

Sadly in the US people have the right to speak freely. I don't agree with what they have to say (in fact I think its stupid and childish) but if protecting the right to freely speak ones views on issues means US troops or even myself might be targeted by the other side and killed I can live with it as the price for living in a democratic society.

Is there an "applause" emoticon?

"Draw Muhammad Day"

That would be awesome.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Sadly in the US people have the right to speak freely. I don't agree with what they have to say (in fact I think its stupid and childish) but if protecting the right to freely speak ones views on issues means US troops or even myself might be targeted by the other side and killed I can live with it as the price for living in a democratic society.

Is there an "applause" emoticon?

The best

"Draw Muhammad Day"

That would be awesome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everybody_ ... hammed_Day

[BigJKU316]

Oh.

can I have your opinion about something? What do you think of this event, "Burn a Quran Day", compared to another event that had been proposed (also in the U.S.), "Draw Muhammad Day"?

Burn a Quran Day is incredibly stupid.

Draw Muhammad Day is actually a pretty funny and somewhat spot on commentary on censorship. Simply put if South Park can make fun of and depict every single other religious figure doing all sorts of awful things then why should Muhammad be exempt from such things?

That is where this started. The creators of that show were told they could not depict Muhammad after 1) they had already depicted him before and 2) they had done all sorts of things from depicting Buddah snorting coke to Jesus attacking Baghdad and saving Santa from the Iraqi's. If that is okay then depicting Muhammad in the same light (which was not even proposed and got to the point they only wanted to draw him standing there) has to be ok as well.

[Tsukiyumi]

Well, dammit. I missed it.

Next May 20, then.

Don't tell me what I can't draw.

[Mikey]

please adress me as Quebecois

I meant no offense, I didn't realize that French-Canadian was a derogatory term.

...but trying to do things the American's Way, believing that your own culture isn't sufficient.

I would say that people try to do things the American way because it is perceived as leading to that standard of living.

But they come at a cost, and this cost is behaving like a civilised country, which means don't go f***ing bomb civilian homes, hospitals, schools and the like when the only thing you are facing is makeshift blind-fire rocket launchers.

They don't, unless those terrorists are using those schools and hospitals as human shields. Don't confuse targetting civilians (which the terrorists do) with accidentally incurring a few civilian casualties in the course of prosecuting those terrorists. Funny though, that this double-standard even leads to the idea that Israel shouldn't even defend itself.