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I read a lot how a timed detonator would have brought everybody back home happy, and Voyager would have never stayed stranded.
Problem is, in Caretaker, when Janeway asks Tuvok how much time it would take to reprogram the array to take them home, he said "several hours".
They didn't have several hours, since the Kazon Maj had just told Janeway he had reinforcements on the way.
Since Voyager had trouble with just 2 Kazon ships (one of which was as small as the Maquis ship), they would not have been able to hold on, and may have lost the array to the retar... Kazons, which means the Kazxon get access to super technology, and Voyager still stays stranded in the Delta Quadrant...

Praeothmin wrote:Problem is, in Caretaker, when Janeway asks Tuvok how much time it would take to reprogram the array to take them home, he said "several hours". They didn't have several hours, since the Kazon Maj had just told Janeway he had reinforcements on the way. Since Voyager had trouble with just 2 Kazon ships (one of which was as small as the Maquis ship), they would not have been able to hold on, and may have lost the array to the retar... Kazons, which means the Kazxon get access to super technology, and Voyager still stays stranded in the Delta Quadrant...

You're making several unjustified assumptions:

1) That the Kazon had reinforcements on the way, rather than simply bluffing.

2) That said reinforcements would arrive before Tuvok could access the ship-grabbing gizmo and reverse it.

3) That Voyager would be unable to hold off the Kazon reinforcements (they were doing fine until the mothership showed up).

4) That Voyager would be unable to destroy the array with tricobalts in the event the Kazon showed up with superior forces.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Praeothmin wrote:Problem is, in Caretaker, when Janeway asks Tuvok how much time it would take to reprogram the array to take them home, he said "several hours". They didn't have several hours, since the Kazon Maj had just told Janeway he had reinforcements on the way. Since Voyager had trouble with just 2 Kazon ships (one of which was as small as the Maquis ship), they would not have been able to hold on, and may have lost the array to the retar... Kazons, which means the Kazxon get access to super technology, and Voyager still stays stranded in the Delta Quadrant...

You're making several unjustified assumptions:

1) That the Kazon had reinforcements on the way, rather than simply bluffing.

2) That said reinforcements would arrive before Tuvok could access the ship-grabbing gizmo and reverse it.

3) That Voyager would be unable to hold off the Kazon reinforcements (they were doing fine until the mothership showed up).

4) That Voyager would be unable to destroy the array with tricobalts in the event the Kazon showed up with superior forces.

1) The Maj said so, so unless you assume he was lying, I have no reason to disbelieve him

2) Since the Ocampa planet where the first Kazons were met is close, it is a very reasonable assumption

3) Voyager was doing "fine" because they had the help of the Maquis raider, but they were not winning until the raider rammed the big Kazon ship. So even with 1 or 2 other smaller raiders, then Voyager would have been in trouble.

4) Destroying it would have yielded the same resutl: they would still be stranded there, except that they would have been facing a superior force and could possibly be destroyed.

Praeothmin wrote:1) The Maj said so, so unless you assume he was lying, I have no reason to disbelieve him

You think military commanders routinely give their opponents accurate information? Or that they don't lie through their teeth whenever it gives them an advantage?

2) Since the Ocampa planet where the first Kazons were met is close, it is a very reasonable assumption

The Kazon on Ocampa were the ones involved in the battle.

3) Voyager was doing "fine" because they had the help of the Maquis raider, but they were not winning until the raider rammed the big Kazon ship. So even with 1 or 2 other smaller raiders, then Voyager would have been in trouble.

They were holding their own until the Predator joined the battle. Given that Voyager had Starfleet's latest technology and was by far the larger ship, while the raider was a tiny, ancient heap of junk, which do you think was doing most of the work?

4) Destroying it would have yielded the same resutl: they would still be stranded there, except that they would have been facing a superior force and could possibly be destroyed.

That's the worst case scenario, assuming they're too stupid to fire the tricobalts then bug out.

The best case scenario is that they get home. It's well worth the risk.

Captain Seafort wrote:You think military commanders routinely give their opponents accurate information? Or that they don't lie through their teeth whenever it gives them an advantage?

I'm not saying he couldn't, I'm saying I have no reason to believe he was lying. Voyager was in a region of the Delta quadrant where the Kazon resided, so the Maj could have indeed been telling the truth

The Kazon on Ocampa were the ones involved in the battle.

And how do we know that was all of them?
Nothing indicates the Kazon on the planet or in the attacking ship were the only one there.

They were holding their own until the Predator joined the battle. Given that Voyager had Starfleet's latest technology and was by far the larger ship, while the raider was a tiny, ancient heap of junk, which do you think was doing most of the work?

Funny, without that "heap of junk", as you say, Voyager would not have been able to triumph over the big ship, and even hits from the small ship was rocking Voyager, and had some effects on the shields

That's the worst case scenario, assuming they're too stupid to fire the tricobalts then bug out.

Or assuming they'll last long enough in a fight with the reinforcements to do so...

The best case scenario is that they get home. It's well worth the risk.

Except there were pieces of information missing that did not allow them to properly calculate these risks.
They don't know how fast the big Kazon ships are, or how many there are.
If they fight them and get seriously damaged, they might not be able to outrun them later if needed, while destroying the array now ensures no one gets the technology, Voyager survives and can try to find other ways home

Again, you are making unfounded assumptions while accusing me of doing the same:
-You assume the Maj was lying without a shred of evidence;
-You assume Voyager would have been able to defeat the other ships while it was having trouble handling two small raiders and 1 big ship, while receiving help from the Maquis Raider, which they lost in the battle;
-You assume that the modifications to get them home would have been made quickly enough to evade the incoming re-inforcements, while Tuvok clearly said it would take "several" hours;
-You assume that the damage the array sustained would not have prevented it from sending Voyager home, while it was sufficient to disable the auto-destruct sequence;
I'm going from onscreen evidence, what are you basing your assumptions on?
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Praeothmin wrote:I'm not saying he couldn't, I'm saying I have no reason to believe he was lying. Voyager was in a region of the Delta quadrant where the Kazon resided, so the Maj could have indeed been telling the truth

He's a military commander talking to his opponent. Yes, he may have been telling the truth, but he's about as far from a reliable source as you can get.

And how do we know that was all of them?
Nothing indicates the Kazon on the planet or in the attacking ship were the only one there.

This is the Kazon settlement:



Two small ships, no more - if they'd had more they'd have brought them to the battle.

Funny, without that "heap of junk", as you say, Voyager would not have been able to triumph over the big ship, and even hits from the small ship was rocking Voyager, and had some effects on the shields

And? How does this change the fact that they were holding off the smaller ships without much trouble.

Or assuming they'll last long enough in a fight with the reinforcements to do so...

If the Kazon come at them with overwhelming force then they'll see them coming in time to change the plan, and if they don't then they'll figure out in the early stages of the action whether they can be held off or not.

They don't know how fast the big Kazon ships are, or how many there are.

So? They're staying put long enough to activate the array, not planning a war.

If they fight them and get seriously damaged, they might not be able to outrun them later if needed, while destroying the array now ensures no one gets the technology, Voyager survives and can try to find other ways home

If they didn't use the array they'd be stuck seven decades from the nearest Starbase, and therefore as good as dead.

-You assume the Maj was lying without a shred of evidence;

He's utterly unreliable as a source - nothing he says can be taken to be in the least bit trustworthy

-You assume Voyager would have been able to defeat the other ships while it was having trouble handling two small raiders and 1 big ship, while receiving help from the Maquis Raider, which they lost in the battle;

I pointed out that they were kicking the shit out of the Kazon before the Pred turned up, and therefore knew that a lot more than two raiders were required to pose a threat.

-You assume that the modifications to get them home would have been made quickly enough to evade the incoming re-inforcements, while Tuvok clearly said it would take "several" hours;

You're assuming that a) there are reinforcements on the way and b) that they'd arrive within said several hours.

-You assume that the damage the array sustained would not have prevented it from sending Voyager home, while it was sufficient to disable the auto-destruct sequence;

So what?

I'm going from onscreen evidence, what are you basing your assumptions on?

The fact that they're seven decades from home. Your approach can be summarised as "trying to activate the array to send them home wasn't guaranteed to work, therefore they shouldn't even try". My approach is "if they don't use the array to get home they're as good as dead, so the risk is well worth it".

I know derailing is normal but can we derail into new territory?

Tyyr wrote:I know derailing is normal but can we derail into new territory?

Do you think the Voyager crew recycled their excretions as foodstuffs, or usable items?

He's a military commander talking to his opponent. Yes, he may have been telling the truth, but he's about as far from a reliable source as you can get.

But Janeway's not relying on him for vital tactical information, she's been told he has reinforcements, and she'd be a bad leader if she dismissed this simply because you feel "he's about as far from a reliable source as you can get"
She has to consider he's telling the truth, and plan accordingly

This is the Kazon settlement:
Two small ships, no more - if they'd had more they'd have brought them to the battle.

You mean, like the big ship they DID bring to the fight with Voyager, the one the required the Maquis ship's suicide run to disable?
Since that big ship wasn't in the settlement, and they brought it to the fight, then we have no evidence they didn't have more, and his threat of reinforcements is a credible one

And? How does this change the fact that they were holding off the smaller ships without much trouble.

But they had trouble with the big one, and were told other ships were coming, and they were fresh out of Maquis ships to sacrifice in suicidal charges

If the Kazon come at them with overwhelming force then they'll see them coming in time to change the plan, and if they don't then they'll figure out in the early stages of the action whether they can be held off or not.
So? They're staying put long enough to activate the array, not planning a war.

It counts because if they can't outrun the big ships, and wait for them to come, then their stuck in a fight they can't win, against enemies they can't outrun.
How is that a good strategy?

If they didn't use the array they'd be stuck seven decades from the nearest Starbase, and therefore as good as dead.

Yet they didn't use it, and they survived.
Staying alive long enough to actually search for a way home is better then planning a suicide stand just for the slim chance the Maj was lying, the array wasn't too damaged to work, and Voyager could fight against whatever's thrown at it

He's utterly unreliable as a source - nothing he says can be taken to be in the least bit trustworthy

Why? What has he done that was untrustworthy until now? The only lyer we've seen up to that point was Neelix, when he double-crossed the Kazon to save Kes

I pointed out that they were kicking the s**t out of the Kazon before the Pred turned up, and therefore knew that a lot more than two raiders were required to pose a threat.

If by "kicking the shit" you mean not destroying them in short order while receiving help from the Maquis Raider before the big ship arrived, then you're right.
But they still did not know how many other ships, or what type of ships, were coming as reinforcements.

You're assuming that a) there are reinforcements on the way and b) that they'd arrive within said several hours.

Well, Janeway had to because a)she got her ass kicked by the Kazon ships and could no longer sacrifice a ship to kill the opponents, b) the array had been severely damaged by the impact of the dying Kazon ship and might not be able to bring them back and c) the reinforcements could very well arrive within the hour.

The fact that they're seven decades from home. Your approach can be summarised as "trying to activate the array to send them home wasn't guaranteed to work, therefore they shouldn't even try". My approach is "if they don't use the array to get home they're as good as dead, so the risk is well worth it".

My actual approach is: "we're facing known risks, with possible enemies coming at us again while we're in a vulnerable position, while trying something that has virtually no chance of succeeding, so let's take all of these into account when devising our possible course of action".
You're of the opinion that the actual risks are worth it, you're ignoring other possible risks, and feel that staying and trying is the best way to go.
I just feel they aren't

Tsukiyumi wrote:

Tyyr wrote:I know derailing is normal but can we derail into new territory?

Do you think the Voyager crew recycled their excretions as foodstuffs, or usable items?

Probably as boots...

I think concept of Voyager is good. I think the execution of it was poor even from the start. I think the destruction of the Caretaker array was supposed to play abit more in Janeway's psyche. Which it did in a odd two or so episodes or so. It should have been much more.

Kazons were nothing more than thugs with crap in their hair. The Vidiians should have played a much bigger role if not completely replacing the Kazon totally. I think the Vidiians should have been there at the Array wanting to farm the Ocampa. Perhaps they were the major power in that area of space. Keep their level of technology they had. Just make them a bigger threat. They want Voyager for their technology. No peaceful settlement. A single minded goal or curing their disease or fixing the damage done to their bodies. It would definitely make the Delta Quadrant more dangerous than a bunch of thugs.

The Maquis should have played a bigger role in terms of how they would blend with the Starfleet crew. Chakotay being the leader and understanding how this 'alliance' should work would have to keep his own crew from being too much trouble. Maybe even butting heads with his crew once in awhile.

Paris I think should have just been a Starfleet officer with nothing left or a plain civilian.

While I understand the SFX of the day would prevent a battered Voyager each episode. Stock shots and all. But if they for example, gave Voyager after at least the pilot a bit weathering it would look better. Or after a certain amount of time, create new stock shots of a more battered Voyager. Or hell just show how bad the interior is. Battlestar Galactica did this very well. But that is a benefit of CGI.

I do think there should have been more strict rules in the bible for the writers on how Janeway and Voyager should act. But I do think Voyager should be abit more open to trade, so that by the end of the series, Voyager should look like they have through some very rough times.


The Borg should be treated as a distant enemy, always there. Always trying to avoid them. They should that enemy that voyager can never hope to defeat or battle. escape is always an option. But like I said there shoukd have been a danger from other races and even to themsevles. Not some sort of happy Starfleet family with Voyager always pristine the fucking time.

The Maquis were the biggest problem for me.
Apart from a few "incidents", and the Ceska story, they pretty much all blended in too easily.
Even Chacotay assumed his role as Commander too well.
He barely ever chaffed at Janeway's decisions, and fell into the routine of a Commander seconds after putting on the pips.
There should have been more tensions, more incidents between the two crews, the Maquis always knowing they can't do much if push comes to shove because they are inferior in numbers, knowing also they need the Starfleet crew to survive.
The Starfleet crew never really trusting the Maquis, always spying on them, reporting them to their officers for any perceived infractions, real or not...
It should have taken at least a couple of seasons for all of this to go away, if ever.

I totally agree. I remember watching it when it first came out thinking how the Maquis would blend in. Too perfectly I think.

Overall the crew's attitude seemed like they were only a few days away from a starbase or something.

Ok, time to toss my two sense into the mix here.

The USS Voyager was one of the most technologically advanced ships in Starfleet. Regardless if the enemy Captain was lying or not, Voyagers long range sensors would have picked up the inbound ships in plenty of time to fall back on plan B.

IIRC, part of Voyagers problem at the time was it was trying to defend the array, which limited it's mobility, which is what made it vulnerable to the "motherships" weapons. The Kazon raiders were no match for Voyager, and she could have successfully engaged another wave if need be. The mothership was taken out of the fight by the Maquis Raider, so they had some breathing space.

So, to some it up.

Plan A....hold off or drive off the Kazon until Tuvok gets the Caretakers array working again, go home, and destroy it with timed explosives.

Plan B....if you detect a threat incoming that is greater than what the ship can handle before you can escape back home, THEN you can blow it and start the LONG trip home.

Don't forget though, that the Mothership collided with the array. We have no idea how extensive the damage was.