Republican Extremists Getting Violent

[sunnyside]

I'm sorry, I just sort of presumed that people would know that I was being hyperbolic, and that I wouldn't actually want anyone drawna nd quartered in reality. Perhaps we should get an emoticon for "this is so ludicrous that you have to know it's meant tongue-in-cheek and can't possibly believe that it's an actual tenet of mine."

"That's what she said" (Palin). Or at least what she'd probably say if someone pestered her about this.

That said I do think a number of the people in the articles definitly crossed a line. And the GOP should condemn the stuff going after kids and such.

As for why some people are reacting this way, I think there are two distinct groups.

One are the people who think abortion is murder. From their point of view, they're like Germans watching their government slaughter Jews or any other such point in history where it was OK to kill some people, becuase, well, they aren't real people.

The other are people who feel that they and their loved ones are getting killed by this bill. To a degree this is probably true. There will be more patients for the same resources and doctors in the near future, insurance companies may well degrade their coverage in order to keep plans affordable while complying with the new laws, and if plans and payments are degraded availiblility of high end equipment and new drugs may plumet. You can't do all that without it resulting in the deaths of some people who might have otherwise survived under the current system, and probably there will be quite a bit of worse outcomes or more time with problems before they're resolved. But rhetoric has exagerated the increased risk way out of proportion in my opinion, to the point where people are panicking.

There are also some that think they and the country is being bankrupted to pay for people to play video games and use drugs while having health care at their fingertips. But I think those are staying pretty violence free.

[Tsukiyumi]

I think it's funny that people who call themselves Christians would be against helping downtrodden people.

Hi-larious.

[sunnyside]

I think it's funny that people who call themselves Christians would be against helping downtrodden people.

Hi-larious.

In all seriousness I think a core issue of this whole thing is the perception of the poor.

The leftist view is that they are noble and hardworking people, oppressed by The Man, and in need of assistance to live the life they deserve.

The rightist view is that they're playing videogames while smoking pot, occasionally stopping to spawn a bunch of babies they cannot even begin to afford in order to get more government money.

There is a bit of truth to both. Statistically the biggest chunk is women who have children and then are seperated from the father, either by divorce, him ditching them, or the baby daddy never being involved. Most have a job whlle grandma watches the kids, but it isn't enough to covver that number of dependents.

Which actually seems a sympathic demographic to me. Though I would really like to see more effort expended towards addressing the core problems involved in all that.

In an almost ironic twist, government funded abortions, contraceptives, and vasectomies/tuboligations might help quite a bit, possibly more than anything else the government could do in the long run, but it's the most opposed portion by the right.

[Mikey]

"That's what she said" (Palin). Or at least what she'd probably say if someone pestered her about this.

You know what? I'd love to believe that's true... but I don't. If she was making a joke of it, it would have been more blatant.

One are the people who think abortion is murder. From their point of view, they're like Germans watching their government slaughter Jews or any other such point in history where it was OK to kill some people, becuase, well, they aren't real people.

Are you saying that the guy who cut the gas line believes a kid deserves to die because their uncle is someone who the perp doesn't like? That's not a cultural syndrome, that's a dangerous and criminal personality disorder.

The other are people who feel that they and their loved ones are getting killed by this bill. To a degree this is probably true. There will be more patients for the same resources and doctors in the near future, insurance companies may well degrade their coverage in order to keep plans affordable while complying with the new laws, and if plans and payments are degraded availiblility of high end equipment and new drugs may plumet. You can't do all that without it resulting in the deaths of some people who might have otherwise survived under the current system, and probably there will be quite a bit of worse outcomes or more time with problems before they're resolved. But rhetoric has exagerated the increased risk way out of proportion in my opinion, to the point where people are panicking.

Lack of decent medical care cannot cause someone to die - it can only inhibit the prevention of death in someone who was already dying. In any event, that can't justify an attempted murder or terroristic action.

[sunnyside]

Lack of decent medical care cannot cause someone to die - it can only inhibit the prevention of death in someone who was already dying.

True, but tell that to the pundits and lawyers.

In any event, that can't justify an attempted murder or terroristic action.

I agree, I wasn't attempting to justify anything. Just explaining where they're coming from.

To someone outside the US the emotion elicited might seems strange or downright bizzare. But it's coming from not wanting their loved ones or themselves to die so someone they don't respect can live and/or not wanting their tax dollars to fund what they firmly believe to be the butchering of helpless innocents.

[Sionnach Glic]

To someone outside the US the emotion elicited might seems strange or downright bizzare.

Believe me, it does.

But it's coming from not wanting their loved ones or themselves to die so someone they don't respect can live and/or not wanting their tax dollars to fund what they firmly believe to be the butchering of helpless innocents.

You know, we have our own anti and pro-abortionist movements over here, but I've yet to hear about any of them gunning down abortion doctors in church, or not so subtly urging people to harrass their relatives, or cutting gas lines just outside their houses.

[Tyyr]

I think it's funny that people who call themselves Christians would be against helping downtrodden people.

Hi-larious.

I don't think most are. The problem is they want to do it because they want to do it, not because it's government mandated.

[Mikey]

To someone outside the US the emotion elicited might seems strange or downright bizzare. But it's coming from not wanting their loved ones or themselves to die so someone they don't respect can live and/or not wanting their tax dollars to fund what they firmly believe to be the butchering of helpless innocents.

I call bullshit. This isn't about protesters or impassioned letters to a congressman; we're talking about the encouragement of terrorism. If the attempt on the life of that family who was related to the lawmaker - not even the lawmaker himself (!) - was succesful, who's family member would that have helped in a medical arena? Murder isn't OK, even if someone really, really wants to do it for no particular good reason.

Believe me, it does.

Well, I'm in the US and these people seem criminally insane to me from where I'm standing, too.

You know, we have our own anti and pro-abortionist movements over here, but I've yet to hear about any of them gunning down abortion doctors in church, or not so subtly urging people to harrass their relatives, or cutting gas lines just outside their houses.

That's because (this is so ironic talking about Ireland, of all places) you're talking about people with a point to make - we're talking about people with a criminal pathology and no point except to hear their own voices in the world even at the expense of their humanity.

The problem is they [don't want to do it

Edited for cynicism but accuracy. Sorry to tell you, folks, but most Christians, Jews, Muslims, or whatevers in the world are perfectly content to name themsleves as part of a group but not so much when it comes to the actual sacrifice.

[Tyyr]

I think that's part of it. A lot of people will claim to be part of a religion because that's the kind of church grandma went to, not because it really means anything to them.

[Sionnach Glic]

I'd well believe it. About two thirds of the self-proclaimed Christians I've met have never set foot within a church since they were a kid.

[sunnyside]

I call bullshit. This isn't about protesters or impassioned letters to a congressman; we're talking about the encouragement of terrorism. If the attempt on the life of that family who was related to the lawmaker - not even the lawmaker himself (!) - was succesful, who's family member would that have helped in a medical arena? Murder isn't OK, even if someone really, really wants to do it for no particular good reason.

Again, not justifying anything. I'm not sure why you can't read that. I'm just trying to explain why people from protesters to these psychos can be so intensly upset about what might seem like a nice and reasonable thing to do.

You know, we have our own anti and pro-abortionist movements over here, but I've yet to hear about any of them gunning down abortion doctors in church, or not so subtly urging people to harrass their relatives, or cutting gas lines just outside their houses.

I think the distinction is that many don't really feel it's murder, more that it's immoral, or at least that it isn't worth the stress to them to do anything about it.

But for some in the US it's much more emotional. There was an interesting article in one of the Philly newspapers with hermaphrodite prostitute ads in the back. It was with one of the guys that would go out and hold up signs outside abortion centers. A central thing to the article was that he felt ashamed of himself, because he said he was too much of a "coward" to kill the murderers.

To him the emotional response in his mind would be like what you might feel if it was legal for parents to walk into your class and kill one of their children because they didn't want them anymore, and then would head out to go party. But you weren't legally allowed to do anything but tell them what they're doing is wrong.

[Sionnach Glic]

I think the distinction is that many don't really feel it's murder, more that it's immoral, or at least that it isn't worth the stress to them to do anything about it.

Plenty of anti-abortion protestors in Europe feel that it's murder. Indeed, that's the whole reason why they oppose it. Many of those groups use the exact same slogans and imagery as their American counterparts, and feel that it's plenty worth the stress of doing something about it.

But the fact remains that they don't go around bombing abortion clinics, harrassing the families of workers there, or gunning down doctors who perform abortions.

[Tsukiyumi]

...the fact remains that they don't go around bombing abortion clinics, harrassing the families of workers there, or gunning down doctors who perform abortions.

Lazy damned liberals.

[Mikey]

Again, not justifying anything. I'm not sure why you can't read that. I'm just trying to explain why people from protesters to these psychos can be so intensly upset about what might seem like a nice and reasonable thing to do.

I can read that. I don't recall writing anything about what Sunnyside personally did to anyone. My response to these nut-jobs still stands.

[sunnyside]

I can read that. I don't recall writing anything about what Sunnyside personally did to anyone. My response to these nut-jobs still stands.

Look, I think we agree. None of us support their actions. I was just explaining why anyone would be upset at all.

Though I suppose with the abortion people I guess I can understand where they're coming from. I don't think murder is the right answer to murder, at least not on an institutional level. But well, how would you guys feel if people were legally allowed to execute their kids so long as they were under the age of three, and people did so routinely? Obviously it's different to you. But not to them.