Daystrom Institute Technical Library
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I wish our range had a license for ammo, that'd be awesome. I may be resorting to making my own, at prices like 18.95 for 20.Tyyr wrote:I usually buy my ammo at the range. They sell their target shooting stuff for cheap, you just have to use it all there. Not so hard with a .38 or .45 but it takes some dedication with a .22
Wal-Mart's ammo is in a locked case.
I disagree, he may be a hypocrite and a blowhard but his over-the-top ridiculous style gets the message across to the segment with blinders on.Michael Moore is the type that would do a documentary on the homeless while spending his nights in a 5 star hotel. He's a complete and totally useless member of the human race.
And? The solution to that is not "give civvies the job".Tsukiyumi wrote:Law enforcement can't be everywhere no matter where you live.
What sort of idiotic crook is going to waste time trying to break into the loo when he can easily strip the house of anything valuable instead?I guess you guys don't have a lot of home invasions over there. What do you do when they start busting the door in? Yell, "occupied!" and hope they leave you alone?
Point, given the openness of the Mexican boarder. Nonetheless, I'd like to see some numbers.Smuggled into the country, for the most part.
Which begs the question, who the hell needs more than one gun?I think you've let the per capita fool you; the majority of people over here don't own guns. The people who do usually own more than one, which skews those figures.
And? The Constitution is a collection of laws. Laws can be changed.
No, my friend, that would be changing the Constitution. See? I doubt we'll be doing that any time soon.
Prove it.Yes, the number of firearm related murders would certainly go down, soon to be replaced by a massive increase in stabbing deaths.
Nonetheless, it would be a lot more difficult than with a firearm. Plus jerrycans are rather less portable than handguns.Or, like the attack here a few months ago, people will just set other people on fire. Hey, let's ban gasoline! And, if you think a person couldn't light another on fire with gas from a distance, you haven't observed how quickly a gas fire will follow a trail of gas.
Fair enough - I've never fired a pistol, so based on experience I tend to automatically think of 25 yards as being an easy shot.Quick side note: your estimates of effective pistol ranges are way off. The average schmoe with a pistol wouldn't hit a bison at 20 yards. The people who train in safety and practice a lot generally aren't criminals. Or our cops; they can't hit sh*t either.
15-20 feet would be a better estimate of the accurate range of a handgun for the average shooter.
It shows that murders are a bigger problem even as a proportion of all firearms deaths in the US than other countries.Okay, so only half of ours are suicides. Whatever.
Wrong - the tables you provided earlier were firearms murder rates, not all firearms deaths.The standing points are that the statistics likely include those figures (skewing it)
My condolences. While those determined to kill themselves will succeed regardless of method, lacking firearms will make it more difficult. This will remove the option for those who are suffering from depression and having a particularly bad day simply shooting themselves.those people would just find another way to commit suicide. A friend of mine euthanized himself with the same chemicals he'd used to put animals to sleep.
And how many of those "law abiding citizens defending themselves" could have taken another route to save themselves from death or serious injury, such as cooperating with the crook, or running?Okay, here's what I'm getting at: how many of those deaths were criminals being shot by honest citizens defending themselves? That's not one of the percentages I've seen in any studies.
No, you won't change it either way. It will, however, reduce the total number of weapons in circulation, and hopefully start to remedy the US malaise by which everyone and his dog seems to think that the first response to being mugged should be to fight back.It would be ass-backwards to remove people's ability to defend themselves before we straighten out ineptness and corruption in our police, and reduce the number of criminals on the street with guns. You won't change that figure by taking guns from law-abiding citizens.
You didn't respond to the point, which wasn't about magic plods turning up in seconds, but the fundamental point that it is not the role of the public to gun down every crook they gun into. The prevention and investigation of crime is the role of the police, and as soon as that state monotony on the legitimate use of force is broken you are on very dangerous ground.Yes, those magic police that apparently can show up within seconds in England. I'd love to see some footage of those supersonic cops someday. You do have supersonic cops, right? Because 5 minutes with three or four thugs stabbing you with knives, or even just kicking you, and you probably won't be getting up.
Our response times vary between fifteen minutes and over 24 hours, as I've seen first-hand. Either one is far too long.
I'm basing this on the assumption that the criminals in question are most interested in making money. Granted most crooks aren't exactly Einstein, but attacking someone and then stealing their stuff strikes me as rather more hazardous and tiring than simply stealing stuff and running.Ah! I've got it! Our criminals must not be as civilized as yours! See, over here, they're just as likely to just kick your door in and shoot you to death, or beat you to death, and then loot your stuff. You're assuming that the criminal will let you go if you co-operate. That is not how it works over here.
I'd rather give someone my wallet and walk away than pull a gun out and hope a) that I hit him and b) he (or one of his mates) doesn't hit me. If you think you know better than every self-defence expert I've ever heard be my guest and take your chances. I'll offer my condolences when your luck runs out.Like I said above, you're leaving it up to them whether you live or die. I don't feel like leaving it up to anybody but myself.
Captain Seafort wrote:
Which begs the question, who the hell needs more than one gun?
Here's the first part that I'm going to address, because it gets to the root of the problem here. It doesn't make any sense to me either, but it's a fact: criminals here in America have become increasingly violent.Captain Seafort wrote:I'm basing this on the assumption that the criminals in question are most interested in making money. Granted most crooks aren't exactly Einstein, but attacking someone and then stealing their stuff strikes me as rather more hazardous and tiring than simply stealing stuff and running.
Like Kendall said, collectors, for one thing. My friend that was in the Marine Corps owns a handgun and a rifle; my friend that works at the gun range owns 30+ guns, in part because his girlfriend wins them at international shooting tournaments. Another friend of mine owns dozens, partially because he likes them, and partially because he lives out in the country, on a farm, and there are wild animals to worry about. I only have my pistol for self-defense.Which begs the question, who the hell needs more than one gun?
You can't just change the Constitution with a hand wave. Besides, the original point was going house by house, and searching them. That will never fly in America, and any lawmakers who tried it would be out on their asses in no time. Alternatively, it could lead to civil war; not the kind of thing any administration would risk.And? The Constitution is a collection of laws. Laws can be changed.
Some of them, I'm sure. Thankfully, we are given the choice of whether or not to defend ourselves over here. If I'm likely to be shot, stabbed, beaten, or tied up and my house set on fire with me in it, I'd rather have the option of trying to defend myself.And how many of those "law abiding citizens defending themselves" could have taken another route to save themselves from death or serious injury, such as cooperating with the crook, or running?
I did respond to that exact point. Regardless of whose role it is, the cops simply aren't effective.You didn't respond to the point, which wasn't about magic plods turning up in seconds, but the fundamental point that it is not the role of the public to gun down every crook they gun into. The prevention and investigation of crime is the role of the police, and as soon as that state monotony on the legitimate use of force is broken you are on very dangerous ground.
I'd rather be shot fighting back, than be shot in the back. And, self defense experts I've heard all suggest you should immediately fight back, and try to get away, rather than be abducted. See, they don't want your $20 in your wallet. They want you to access your ATM. Happens a lot over here.I'd rather give someone my wallet and walk away than pull a gun out and hope a) that I hit him and b) he (or one of his mates) doesn't hit me. If you think you know better than every self-defence expert I've ever heard be my guest and take your chances. I'll offer my condolences when your luck runs out.
It is, since I can get 50 rounds of .38 for $20. Makes the range a lot less painful. They also carry the good ammo that a lot of other places don't.Cpl Kendall wrote:I wish our range had a license for ammo, that'd be awesome. I may be resorting to making my own, at prices like 18.95 for 20.
Not really. He's an over the top idiot. People tend to recognize him as such and tune out what he says. The only people I've talked to who liked what he did tended to already agree with him.I disagree, he may be a hypocrite and a blowhard but his over-the-top ridiculous style gets the message across to the segment with blinders on.
Please do, I'm pretty tired of the GC debate where it goes round and round with no evidence.sunnyside wrote:If anyone is inclined to read them, I can dig the numbers out again. But the upshot is that within countries, increasing gun laws doesn't improve the situation in regards to gun deaths, while easing them not only doesn't increase gun deaths it tends to reduce other crimes.
I provided evidence of what I claimed. Except for the percentage of guns used in crimes that were smuggled in, rather than somehow being stolen from lawful owners. I don't think there is a statistic for that, on the internet anyways.Cpl Kendall wrote:Please do, I'm pretty tired of the GC debate where it goes round and round with no evidence.
sunnyside wrote:If you want to compare countries to countries without considering the other factors than clearly we swtich to Islamic absolute monarchies to resolve the current financial crisis so we can have the wealth of the Saudis.
I'd be willing to bet there's a strong connection between EVERY type of crime and education levels.I'd be curious to see if there's any connection between quality of education and gun crime as well.
sunnyside wrote: there is a city that passed laws requiring all heads of households to own a gun. Instead of descending into anarchy the only thing that descended was their crime rate
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=55288
Specifically a 89% in the residential burglary rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennesaw,_Georgia
in addition being rated in the "10 Best Towns for Families" by Family Circle magazine. http://www.kennesaw-ga.gov/index.asp?NID=351
In studies involving interviews of felons, one of the reasons the majority of burglars try to avoid occupied homes is the chance of getting shot. (Increasing the odds of arrest is another.) A study of Pennsylvania burglary inmates reported that many burglars refrain from late-night burglaries because it's hard to tell if anyone is home, several explaining "That's the way to get shot." (Rengert G. and Wasilchick J., Suburban Burglary: A Time and a Place for Everything, 1985, Springfield, IL: Charles Thomas.)
By comparing criminal victimization surveys from Britain and the Netherlands (countries having low levels of gun ownership) with the U.S., Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck determined that if the U.S. were to have similar rates of "hot" burglaries as these other nations, there would be more than 450,000 additional burglaries per year where the victim was threatened or assaulted. (Britain and the Netherlands have a "hot" burglary rate near 45% versus just under 13% for the U.S., and in the U.S. a victim is threatened or attacked 30% of the time during a "hot" burglary.)
Source: Gary Kleck, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997.
sunnyside wrote: Found some stuff. The site is obviously biased but unlike some others it does a solid job of referencing actual studies and external statistics so people can't just hand wave the stuff away.
http://www.gunowners.org/fs0404.htm
Some snippets
Quote:
* Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando's rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation.40
* Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful.41
I really wish I could find more info like to bolded bit in regards to other types of crime and such.
Quote:
* Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole.37
* Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed.38
* Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:
* Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and,
* Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%
Quote:
* At least 17 million women own firearms in the United States.141 And according to the National Research Opinion Center, 44 percent of adult women either own or have access to firearms.142
* As many as 561 times a day, women use guns to protect themselves against sexual assault.143
* In 89.6% of violent crimes directed against women, the offender does not have a gun; and only 10% of rapists carry a firearm.144 Thus, armed women will usually have a decided advantage against their attackers.
Quote:
Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense with a firearm every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America"-a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.
In case that's confusing since we don't lose hundreds of thousands of criminals a year, the site later states that in the vast majority of the cases the gun is merely revealed or a warning shot fired. I've known some people where that has been the case.
A pile of info is insunnyside wrote: Just in case it isn't redundant.
http://www.kc3.com/CCWSTATS.html
Quote:
Of incarcerated felons surveyed by the Department of Justice, 34% have been driven away, wounded, or captured by armed citizens; 40% have decided against committing crimes for fear their would-be victims were armed.
Quote:
Pop. - 13,277,000 Floridians Who Own Guns (Percent) All -- 62.7% Male -- 68.8% Female -- 57.3% Floridians Who Own Guns (Number): 8,325,000 Permits issued: 204,108 Permits Revoked Due To Crime: 17 (0.008%)
The latest report from the Florida Department of State, covering a 6-year, 4-month period from 10/01/87 (start-up date) through 02/28/94, shows that 204,108 CCW permits have been issued -- 69% new permits; 31% permit renewals. Only one-quarter of 1% of permit applications have been rejected due to an applicant's criminal history; two-tenths of 1% have been rejected due to an "incomplete application." One hundred eighty-seven (0.1%) permits have been revoked because the permittee committed some kind of crime, though not necessarily a gun-related or violent crime, after permit issuance. After receiving permits, only 17 (0.008%) individuals committed crimes (not necessarily violent) in which firearms were present, though not necessarily used. By contrast, in 1992 there were about 46,000 gun-related violent crimes (assaults, robberies, homicides and rapes) in Florida, based upon FBI Uniform Crime Reports supplementary reports and reported crime totals.
I know you did dude.Tsukiyumi wrote:I provided evidence of what I claimed. Except for the percentage of guns used in crimes that were smuggled in, rather than somehow being stolen from lawful owners. I don't think there is a statistic for that, on the internet anyways.Cpl Kendall wrote:Please do, I'm pretty tired of the GC debate where it goes round and round with no evidence.
But, yeah, Sunny, if you can find those numbers again, I'd appreciate it.
Also:
I'd be willing to bet there's a strong connection between EVERY type of crime and education levels.
Some info by country. Personally I think it shows a fairly strong correlation with education/socioeconomics
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html
"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty's teeth and keystone under independence. To secure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good." --George Washington
"Americans need not fear the federal government because they enjoy the advantage of being armed, which you possess over the people of almost every other nation." -- James Madison.
And, that, ladies and gentlemen, is why this debate is moot; America won't be disarming anytime soon."Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759"