The Iraq War

[Graham Kennedy]

I supported it at the start, but don't now.

They sold me on the WMD thing, I'm sorry to say. I wasn't interested in the detail of the evidence they threw around as such; as far as I saw it, Saddam had a big WMD program before - I was mostly thinking chemical and maybe biological weapons rather than nukes, which I always doubted he had - and he wouldn't co-operate in proving he didn't have them now. So I figured he probably had them. I didn't really think he was planning to go throwing them around the place, I just wasn't comfortable with him having them on hand.

As I see it the invasion was both brilliant and botched. Brilliant in terms of a military takedown of a foreign regime, sure. But good god, they disbanded the police and the army. What could they possibly have been thinking? That was a disasterous decision that's plagued the occupation ever since.

Right now, as I see it, we should pull out of there. I can't see any real workable rationale for staying.

[Captain Seafort]

Right now, as I see it, we should pull out of there. I can't see any real workable rationale for staying.

There's the fact that the situation is finally improving, as I pointed out in my response to Staplic. The job certainly isn't done, but for the first time since the invasion, there's at least some light at the end of the tunnel. Certainly an immediate withdrawal would be premature, as the Iraqi armed forces still aren't strong enough to handle nationwide security single-handed, but they have taken on responsibility for a number of provinces, including Anbar.

[Graham Kennedy]

Frankly I don't regard that as a good reason for staying. It's their country, let them sort it out themselves.

[KuvahMagh]

Frankly I don't regard that as a good reason for staying. It's their country, let them sort it out themselves.

Them sorting it out will make things even worse for the West and we will be back there in another 10 years doing it all over again. In the Middle East there are no easy answers, Seafort is right, you can't pull out now. Sure it hurts and taking causualities like this in modern times is hard but the alternative is much worse.

In retrospect Iraq was a bad idea, I mean I get the 'Saddam was an evil bastard and the world is better with out him' but at the same time Afghanistan was the more important mission. We should have finished the job there before going after Iraq which had no connection to the attacks that started this whole thing.

[Graham Kennedy]

Them sorting it out will make things even worse for the West and we will be back there in another 10 years doing it all over again. In the Middle East there are no easy answers, Seafort is right, you can't pull out now. Sure it hurts and taking causualities like this in modern times is hard but the alternative is much worse.

The world is full of hellholes that run badly. It's not our job to fix them. The idea that if we don't fight now we will have to fight later is silly, IMO. Why not not fight now and then not fight them later either?

And I think it's rather silly to think that we are winning, or are ever going to win. These people have rivalries that run back millennia. Sure this year may be better than next, but sooner or later it will boil up again. How long do we wait until we say it's enough? McCain suggested a hundred years, and that's not necessarily enough.

[KuvahMagh]

Why not not fight now and then not fight them later either?

Because then they fly planes into buildings filled with Civilians... Seriously though we can't just ignore the problems that exist in the world and hope they sort themselves out. Taking this theory we shouldn't get involved in a Genocide, just let them sort it out themselves.

I've posted it before and I'm sure I will post it again but...

The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. - Ellie Wiesel

Saying America is not the 'World's Policeman' is partially correct but is also partially wrong in that it ignores the fact that there are people who need to be protected. Ideally that would be the UN's role but I think we all know how that ends up. They are the only recognized superpower left, if they don't do this who will? Otherwise we sit back while unstable and aggressive Governments like North Korea and Iran acquire Nuclear Weapons. Should we thus leave Isreal, South Korea, Japan and the numerous other Nations in their range to fend for themselves? If so then hell lets disband NATO, America isn't the World's Policeman so they shouldn't have to protect a Continent of Nations who increasingly don't want to ante up their own defence. Cancel NORAD since Canada sure as hell isn't willing to pay for its own protection and sit behind their protective shield while the World goes to hell when these rogue states see that no one cares anymore.

They have to stay, Iraq was bad at the beginning, I realize that now, but to say that they should leave because no one appointed them to protect the World is just wrong. Leaving now would only escalate every threat the West faces, it would enbolden other Rogue Nations that see this and think they can get away with whatever they want and no one will stop them. Yes it sucks, yes I wish the World was a perfect Utopia where everyone gets along like old friends but its not and until it is someone has to do the job. Even when it is a perfect Utopia you will have to have someone watching over paradise for the next threat to it.

Humans are a brutal species, we can dress ourselves up, drive around in our luxury cars but when someone cuts you off your still going to curse them out...

[Teaos]

The whole "its there country they can sort it out" is so flawed as to be laughable.

Thats like me walking around your house with a cricket bat smashing everything then saying "its your house you fix it"

The army so totally screwed up Iraq it is now their job to fix it. There is no way the Iraqi people can help themselves out of this situation, there are to many people who want to exploit them.

[KuvahMagh]

Very true Teaos, that's pretty much why I want Canada and NATO to step up in Afghanistan and do the job that needs to be done, we f**ked it up so we need to fix it, just walking away does nothing to help the situation and only creates more resentment which adds to that which we created when we walked away last time.

[Lt. Staplic]

I think both Graham and KuvahMauh have the right idea. (not to exclude anyone else, but those are the two major debaters i saw, and seem to represent the two major points from both sides)

We're fighting against an enemy with centuries of constant warfare in their cultures centered around the veryland they live in. Muslim vs. Jew. Then we have radical groups within the Muslims fighting for dominance over eachother as to what interpretation will be law. And now the US has stepped into this, and we've been overwhelmed.

However, we cannot pull out, b/c the US, and other nations in Iraq and all through out the Middle East have to put an end to the threat of the area. Regardless of who, what, when, where, why...the people there will strike out at their enemies. For the radical Islamics that would be the Jews of Isrial, and their backers the US and the rest of the Western World, who pose a threat to their society in and of themselves.

We are completely f*****d on this issue. We pull out, they reassert them selves and start attacking Isrial, the US, France, Canada, Britain, Germany, ect. We stay, and bite the bullet now to contain and possably neutralize the threat, it will be a long and bloody process, and we're going to have to realize that.

To Nicwitz: probably, I'm 16, how about you?

[Graham Kennedy]

Because then they fly planes into buildings filled with Civilians..

Um, they did that before we invaded. In fact, they did that, if they are to be believed, precised because we sent military forces onto what they regard as their land.

Seriously though we can't just ignore the problems that exist in the world and hope they sort themselves out. Taking this theory we shouldn't get involved in a Genocide, just let them sort it out themselves.

We frequently DO take that exact approach. Go ask the people of East Timor.

Otherwise we sit back while unstable and aggressive Governments like North Korea and Iran acquire Nuclear Weapons. Should we thus leave Isreal, South Korea, Japan and the numerous other Nations in their range to fend for themselves? If so then hell lets disband NATO, America isn't the World's Policeman so they shouldn't have to protect a Continent of Nations who increasingly don't want to ante up their own defence. Cancel NORAD since Canada sure as hell isn't willing to pay for its own protection and sit behind their protective shield while the World goes to hell when these rogue states see that no one cares anymore.

I'm sorry, but I think you are talking nonsense. Nobody is saying that the US shouldn't defend its allies; nothing wrong with that. But that's not what happened in Iraq. Gulf War I was about defending allies; Gulf War II clearly was not. It was a land grab, and whatever the actual reasons behind it might have been it sure as hell wasn't done for the benefit of the Iraqi people.

[Teaos]

We frequently DO take that exact approach. Go ask the people of East Timor.

Considering it would take me two hands to count the amount of people I know who have done a tour of duty in East Timor I am going to have to disagree with you here. Both Australia and New Zealand have sizable forces in that country.

[KuvahMagh]

Um, they did that before we invaded. In fact, they did that, if they are to be believed, precised because we sent military forces onto what they regard as their land.

So then you believe that if we pull everything out they will not attack us? If that is so then we have obviously hit a difference of opinion. Yes I know we have a history in the area and the Western World is when you get right down to it filled with a bunch of arrogant bastards who redraw maps as they see fit and generally do whatever they want but pulling out won't stop that it will only make this worse by showing them that terrorism works, that when challenged we will back down. Not the message I feel we need to be sending.

We frequently DO take that exact approach. Go ask the people of East Timor.

Which is exactly my point, we have become afraid of loosing people to the point where we are no longer willing to stand up for others who need that protection. That needs to change and it needs to change here and now. The rest of these Dictators and Criminals need to be shown that they can't just keep carrying on like they have that their are real and immediate consequences and that we won't just pull out when things get a bit rough.

I'm sorry, but I think you are talking nonsense. Nobody is saying that the US shouldn't defend its allies; nothing wrong with that. But that's not what happened in Iraq. Gulf War I was about defending allies; Gulf War II clearly was not. It was a land grab, and whatever the actual reasons behind it might have been it sure as hell wasn't done for the benefit of the Iraqi people.

I agree that the War as advertised was wrong but to just pull out now would be equally wrong. It wasn't about defending Allies but I never said it was. Unfortunately it is now, Israel is in a tight spot, we put them there in the first place and now we have destabilized the area, we can't just leave and wish them good luck, we have to fix the thing we broke.

You said America is not the World's Policeman, then who is. If the answer is no one then like I said before nothing gets better it only gets worse. Why then should America continue to pledge to protect a bunch of Nations who are increasingly unwilling to pay for their own protection or honor that fundamental Alliance? The answer IMHO is that they are the only ones who can and being the only ones that can puts them in that position.

[Nickswitz]

To Nicwitz: probably, I'm 16, how about you?

Same. That's funny. I never thought there were people exactly my age on here

[Deepcrush]

I never liked the war. It was and still is BS. Though I do believe that the US should stay and finish the job that we started. I for one don't give a damn about most other countries. The US has enough problems at home that we should be dealing with. The rest of the world should try taking care of themselves for once. The last 200 years have been held together by England and the United States. England has pulled out, I don't see why the US shouldn't do the same. I want my brother and my nephew to come home. I want my friends to come home. I'm tired of hearing daily death toll reports from around the world.

[Teaos]

I never liked the war. It was and still is BS. Though I do believe that the US should stay and finish the job that we started. I for one don't give a damn about most other countries. The US has enough problems at home that we should be dealing with. The rest of the world should try taking care of themselves for once. The last 200 years have been held together by England and the United States. England has pulled out, I don't see why the US shouldn't do the same. I want my brother and my nephew to come home. I want my friends to come home. I'm tired of hearing daily death toll reports from around the world.

For once I am in total agreement with you. I think America needs to finish the job it started but I do feel empathy for those people personally effected by it.