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Mikey wrote:There's a bit of Starfleet hypocrisy going on there - one the one hand, they're the peaceful, war-as-a-last-resort-only, let's-all-talk-it-out yippies; on the other hand, they don't want to "waste" a little of a starship's time and deuterium to save an entire sapient species (even when it can be done without interference?)

Sounds like a rehash of the "arbitrary and haphazard" thing I mentioned, as well as just plain wrong.

Still that's exactly the sort of culture that "needs" a prime directive. Federation captains would be prone to all sorts of risks and massive expenditures of resources if left to their own devices. This is a way to draw a clear line in the sand. I don't think it would work to say "you can save the population if it requires no more than 200 liters of deuterium."

It also allows one to hide cold pragmatism in very high ground seeming rhetoric. A terribly useful thing to do.

And again. From starfleets point of view they're probably happier with those societies being wiped out. It's a planet they can now colonize and one less potentially pain in the butt culture they'll have to deal with.

I'm not saying that YOU are wrong - I'm saying that the UFP has always couched itself in rhetoric that prides itself on being above pragmatism and self-interest, and then follows this PD which is all about pragmatism and self-interest.

Damn forum ate my post

Picard did have high ranking friends, but he must have had his fair share of enemies. He exposed Starfleets experiments with cloaking technology, which whilst illegal were still had powerful supporters in Starfleet.

He was kept away from the battle during the second Borg incursion, which wasn't totally unjustified in the end.

And he has lost 2 ships so far, and seems to be doing his level best to wreck the third Incidentally, who would have got courtmartialled over the Enterprise D? Picard or Riker?


Theres a nice little scene in TNG: Pen Pals, where the crew are sat round discussing the merits and faults of the Prime Directive, and Picard makes a very good case for non interference. Of course he then goes completely against this moments later, but its still a good scene.

Well to be fair the first one was underpowered and outgunned while the second one was while he wasn't in command

ChakatBlackstar wrote:Well to be fair the first one was underpowered and outgunned while the second one was while he wasn't in command

Picard did have high ranking friends, but he must have had his fair share of enemies.

He would have sh*t loads of enemies.

People who are jealous of his sucess, people who he has exposed (Insurrection), anyone who he disobey, people who blamed him for the Borg.

I'd say more peopl hate him than like him.

Yeah, I'd forgot all about Wolf 359 - Considering the amount of married couples in Starfleet, Sisko can't be the only one with a grudge.

first one was underpowered and outgunned

What does this remind me of something, just that, that something is overpowerd and overguned?

Teaos wrote:

Picard did have high ranking friends, but he must have had his fair share of enemies.

He would have sh*t loads of enemies.

People who are jealous of his sucess, people who he has exposed (Insurrection), anyone who he disobey, people who blamed him for the Borg.

I'd say more peopl hate him than like him.

That may be possible, but all those people are realistically not the ones in the know or the ones in power - in fact the amount of times he's put the rules out of the window and no action has been taken suggests he's one of the few people who is above the law.

I agree with Sunny that the PD is hardly a pure isolationalist thing. The Monroe Doctrine, for instance, was basically a "we won't get involved in your stuff, you don't get involved in ours, with the dividing line being the Atlantic Ocean." Nothing like that really exists in Trek or with the PD, instead it's more like we can trade, exchange, help, assist, interact, cooperate on missions, research, rescues etc., but if there's a civil war entirely inside your planet or government, it's not our place to play god and decide the outcome for your people, or just based on what we perceive at that moment would be OUR best interests. And it's not really about doing what will get you the most popularity or appreciation, because people will resent you for not helping just like they will resent you for helping in a way they didn't want (i.e. not choosing THEIR side in a conflict). It's about knowing that you didn't make yourself beholden and responsible to other empires by trying to haphazardly influence the outcome of major events within their societies. And, also respecting that an outside observer is not necessarily qualified to decide which events will and will not wind up being very important or tide-turning. So you can't give them just a LITTLE replicator system anymore than you can get involved in their civil war. If they turn around and use that "little" replicator to somehow make ammunition, or explosive components, or reverse engineer a crude transporter out of it and start beaming nukes around, not only will the other side blame you, but the galaxy will blame you. And you will be responsible, to some degree.

I have been of the opinion that the PD itself isn't the problem - the problem is the fact that representatives of Starfleet have applied the PD when it suits them, and/or when it's convenient.

I agree with that, but I pretty much write it off as being one of the artistic licenses the writers take to create controversy and conflict for the sake of interesting episodes. I would not want to implement the policy "as we see Captains haphazardly applying it", but I see the value in the philosophy itself.

No argument there. I think the issue at hand is a matter of both education and enforcement among the corps of Starfleet captains.

But you have two options.

Make it absolute or let people apply it when they see fit.

Each has it problems.

Duskofdead wrote:And, also respecting that an outside observer is not necessarily qualified to decide which events will and will not wind up being very important or tide-turning. So you can't give them just a LITTLE replicator system anymore than you can get involved in their civil war. If they turn around and use that "little" replicator to somehow make ammunition, or explosive components, or reverse engineer a crude transporter out of it and start beaming nukes around, not only will the other side blame you, but the galaxy will blame you. And you will be responsible, to some degree.

The original principle of the PD, banning any attempt to influence the development of a pre-warp planet, isn't the one that people have a problem with. The one that gets the stick is the one demonstrated in "Pen Pals" and "Homeward", when obeying the PD would result in the extinction of an entire sapient species. In both cases it proved possible to save the species in question without revealing the existence of aliens, but in the first case Picard was extremely reluctant to make the attempt, and in the second he refused point-blank until the matter was taken out of his hands. Moreover there's Picard's little speech in "Homeward":

Picard wrote:This is one of the times when we must face the ramifications of the Prime Directive... and honour the lives we cannot save.

The sancitmonious bastard ought to buy himself a dictionary and learn that "cannot" and "will not" are different things. Far from being deeply ashamed of what Federation policy has wrought, he's proud of the fact that he's upheld it to the end.